The Liverpool Club Thread. **No Spoilers** *New Sponsors, Comedy Central!*

[C Kent]

Last season against Porto in CL he had Diaz in his pocket.

Porto will rue missing some first half chances, mostly created by the brilliance of Luis Diaz. Doesn't sound like he had Diaz in his back pocket to me, maybe you should watch the game back.

He was also fantastic against Milan. Another player that we didn't give enough chances to develop properly

Nat Phillips had a blinder against Milan, should he be a 1st choice CB? Or is he an extremely limited CB that happened to play out of his skin for that game? Bear in mind that we had to change how we played when he was alongside Rhys Williams to cover for their limitations at the tail end of the 2021 season.

and decided to sell him for a profit to replace him with a subpar player.

You've no idea if Ramsey is a subpar player to Williams, that's just the usual twitter tripe folks spurg out with without seeing someone play.

And you're just making stuff up about his injury record, he's actually quite reliable.

Er, your link confirms exactly that, 9 games missed from Jan 2020 - Nov 2020?

 

[HACO]

Porto will rue missing some first half chances, mostly created by the brilliance of Luis Diaz. Doesn't sound like he had Diaz in his back pocket to me, maybe you should watch the game back.

Neco Williams got a 7.9 rating in that game, our second highest (after Thiago's 8.0 who was MOTM), Diaz got 6.5. Yeah, Williams was brilliant.

Nat Phillips had a blinder against Milan, should he be a 1st choice CB? Or is he an extremely limited CB that happened to play out of his skin for that game? Bear in mind that we had to change how we played when he was alongside Rhys Williams to cover for their limitations at the tail end of the 2021 season.

But nobody claimed Williams should be our 1st choice RB. You're making things up again.

You've no idea if Ramsey is a subpar player to Williams, that's just the usual twitter tripe folks spurg out with without seeing someone play.

He's currently subpar because he hasn't done anything yet.

Maybe Ramsey will be the new Philipp Lahm at the peak of his career, who knows. We're talking about the squad at this moment. We signed an injured player who clearly has potential but hasn't done much yet. He may develop to be the best right back in history, but we signed him to replace a player who was ready to play in the first team and had experience in PL, CL and at international level. Ramsey is none of those things at this moment.

Er, your link confirms exactly that, 9 games missed from Jan 2020 - Nov 2020?

What a joke. Notice none of those were injuries, he got covid twice, and at the age of 17 he missed an occasional game due to lack of game fitness a couple of times. You're holding that against him. Are you seriously calling this guy injury prone while defending players that have been out for months and months due to actual injuries?

--

You keep making things up and keep making goalposts in your attempts of apologetics for the club. Where next? Williams skipped school at the age of 12 so he'll turn into a criminal?

 

[BaZ87]

This argument about Williams is a bit odd. Williams wanted to leave to play regular football. It was why he went out on loan last season and why he left in the summer. Signing or keeping a back-up to Trent is incredibly difficult because of his importance to the side. In an ideal world we'd have a Kostas equivalent at RB but that's easier said than done. Who is good enough and will also accept playing 5-10 PL & CL games per season? If you can't find that player then you've got to find another solution and I don't think signing a highly rated prospect, plus backing them up with a combination of Milner & Gomez was that terrible.

 

[HACO]

This argument about Williams is a bit odd. Williams wanted to leave to play regular football. It was why he went out on loan last season and why he left in the summer. Signing or keeping a back-up to Trent is incredibly difficult because of his importance to the side. In an ideal world we'd have a Kostas equivalent at RB but that's easier said than done. Who is good enough and will also accept playing 5-10 PL & CL games per season?

Oh yeah we had to let him leave because he couldn't offer him regular football, same as Minamino or Origi. My original point was that his replacement hasn't been up to par (so far) so we have depth issues in that position. C Kent decided to attack Williams for some reason so had to correct the record, the lad was a very capable deputy.

If you can't find that player then you've got to find another solution and I don't think signing a highly rated prospect, plus backing them up with a combination of Milner & Gomez was that terrible.

There's nothing wrong with signing a highly rated prospect. Ramsay was good business in my opinion, but we signed him knowing well that he was injured and wouldn't play for several months. This is an example of why we have a squad depth issue despite having a large number of players.

 

[BaZ87]

Regardless of any injury, Ramsey would not have played much, if at all, this season. Klopp was always going to use Gomez and Milner as back-up for Trent in the short-term, in the League and CL anyway. Heck, even Williams couldn't get a game ahead of those two.

 

[C Kent]

Neco Williams got a 7.9 rating in that game, our second highest (after Thiago's 8.0 who was MOTM), Diaz got 6.5. Yeah, Williams was brilliant.

He could well have had a good game, I can't remember it too well personally outside of Thiago's cracking strike, neither can you by the look of it. But your original statement "he had Diaz in his pocket" when the player in question produced multiple opportunities for his team isn't a true statement is it? Especially when you look at write-ups of the game from various media publications and all of them state he struggled with Diaz.

But nobody claimed Williams should be our 1st choice RB. You're making things up again.

He's currently subpar because he hasn't done anything yet.

Maybe Ramsey will be the new Philipp Lahm at the peak of his career, who knows. We're talking about the squad at this moment. We signed an injured player who clearly has potential but hasn't done much yet. He may develop to be the best right back in history, but we signed him to replace a player who was ready to play in the first team and had experience in PL, CL and at international level. Ramsey is none of those things at this moment.

Ahh, apologies that was hyperbole as I assumed that was what we were doing after your claim that Neco's the 2nd coming of Dani Alves (just for clarification that's me exaggerating), the point was that Nat Phillips had the odd decent game and yet he is what he is, a 5th choice CB that would do better moving to either a championship club or a mid to bottom of the league club where he can play as that's his level. Which is exactly the same as Neco William's level, a bit too good to be backup but nowhere near the required level to play for us regularly. Luckily NF were throwing around silly money and offered us 17million quid for him, a cracking bit of business.

What a joke. Notice none of those were injuries, he got covid twice, and at the age of 17 he missed an occasional game due to lack of game fitness a couple of times. You're holding that against him. Are you seriously calling this guy injury prone while defending players that have been out for months and months due to actual injuries?

He was 19 for a start, not 17 and the only time he was in and around the senior squad he starts to pick up little niggly injuries - considering you were having a little whinge about injuries I think that's quite pertinent don't you?

C Kent decided to attack Williams for some reason so had to correct the record, the lad was a very capable deputy.

No, I'm just tired of people like yourself that's all doom and gloom claiming ex-players are something more than they are. You haven't corrected any record.

 

[HACO]

Regardless of any injury, Ramsey would not have played much, if at all, this season. Klopp was always going to use Gomez and Milner as back-up for Trent in the short-term, in the League and CL anyway. Heck, even Williams couldn't get a game ahead of those two.

Williams was definitely ahead of Gomez and Milner at right back last season. Gomez didn't start at RB until April, long after Williams was gone. Milner did only once (and since then Williams started whenever TAA didn't until he left).

However I'd argue if Ramsay is not good enough to play ahead of Gomez and Milner right now, then Williams is yet another player that we sold without getting a proper replacement and yet another self-inflicted squad depth problem.

He could well have had a good game, I can't remember it too well personally outside of Thiago's cracking strike, neither can you by the look of it. But your original statement "he had Diaz in his pocket" when the player in question produced multiple opportunities for his team isn't a true statement is it? Especially when you look at write-ups of the game from various media publications and all of them state he struggled with Diaz.

Oh so you're taking back your claim that he was ridiculed then? Because that's what started all of this

Also in the interest of announcing exaggerations, Diaz-in-the-pocket comment was also exaggeration, Williams was excellent in that match though as scores indicate and I'm sure you'd agree.

Ahh, apologies that was hyperbole as I assumed that was what we were doing after your claim that Neco's the 2nd coming of Dani Alves (just for clarification that's me exaggerating), the point was that Nat Phillips had the odd decent game and yet he is what he is, a 5th choice CB that would do better moving to either a championship club or a mid to bottom of the league club where he can play as that's his level. Which is exactly the same as Neco William's level, a bit too good to be backup but nowhere near the required level to play for us regularly. Luckily NF were throwing around silly money and offered us 17million quid for him, a cracking bit of business.

Williams got very good ratings when he played last season, be it for Liverpool, Fulham or Wales. Certainly not a one-game wonder as you're portraying him to be, that's unfair to the lad.

And I said selling him was good business, the problem was that our replacement strategy meant we'll be missing a RB cover for months at the very least and after that we're left with a player that is at an even earlier level in his development

Controversial opinion: Dani Alves was overrated. Attack me

Spoiler

He was 19 for a start, not 17 and the only time he was in and around the senior squad he starts to pick up little niggly injuries - considering you were having a little whinge about injuries I think that's quite pertinent don't you?

Technically 18, neither 17 nor 19

I admit I do have a problem with players that take a place our squad and on paper are offering depth but in reality are rarely ready to play when called upon

No, I'm just tired of people like yourself that's all doom and gloom claiming ex-players are something more than they are.

I'm also annoyed by the everything-is-fine-as-is crew who think it's their mission to attack anyone who might have any criticisms or think differently about the management's decision making. Being critical is not doom and gloom, you critique because you want something better. I want trophies, the way we've conducted ourselves this season (from FSG all the way to players) isn't how we win trophies.

Also, you're ignoring when I praise our players, last page for example. So maybe this doom and gloom is something you're searching for in everyone's comments. Something to consider.

You haven't corrected any record.

Oh so you didn't claim he was ridiculed when he wasn't, didn't claim he only played 2 games this season when he played all 12, right

You live in your fantasy world, I give up.

 

[BaZ87]

Williams was definitely ahead of Gomez and Milner at right back last season. Gomez didn't start at RB until April, long after Williams was gone. Milner did only once (and since then Williams started whenever TAA didn't until he left).

However I'd argue if Ramsay is not good enough to play ahead of Gomez and Milner right now, then Williams is yet another player that we sold without getting a proper replacement and yet another self-inflicted squad depth problem.

No he wasn't Williams barely even made the matchday squad, certainly up until the end of November. With the exception of our final 2 CL group games, which were dead rubbers and we rotated the most of the side, Williams played an entire 8 minutes of PL and CL football.

In the few games Trent wasn't available (Palace, City and Porto), Milner started RB with Gomez coming on for him as a sub in 2 of those. Williams didn't feature at all and was clearly considered as our 4th choice RB. So Ramsey being in the same position, at least in the short term, means we're no worse off.

 

[HACO]

No he wasn't Williams barely even made the matchday squad, certainly up until the end of November. With the exception of our final 2 CL group games, which were dead rubbers and we rotated the most of the side, Williams played an entire 8 minutes of PL and CL football.

In the few games Trent wasn't available (Palace, City and Porto), Milner started RB with Gomez coming on for him as a sub in 2 of those. Williams didn't feature at all and was clearly considered as our 4th choice RB. So Ramsey being in the same position, at least in the short term, means we're no worse off.

And we saw what a disaster Milner was at RB, especially against City (poor game and very close to being sent off). Probably why that experimented ended after those couple of games and Williams came ahead of him from then on.

 

[BaZ87]

And we saw what a disaster Milner was at RB, especially against City (poor game and very close to being sent off). Probably why that experimented ended after those couple of games and Williams came ahead of him from then on.

Come on, stop digging. Williams only played in games that had no meaning. In any match that had anything riding on, Williams didn't feature and often didn't even make the bench. Milner and Gomez, who was being eased back after a long injury lay-off, were picked ahead of him in any game that Trent wasn't available for.

 

[C Kent]

Williams was definitely ahead of Gomez and Milner at right back last season. Gomez didn't start at RB until April, long after Williams was gone. Milner did only once (and since then Williams started whenever TAA didn't until he left).

He only started one league game, the bulk of his appearances came in the league cup and europe when he rested a CB and we had Gomez not really fit. I think Klopp was happy to let him go on loan as he had stagnated a fair bit from when he made his debut.

Oh so you're taking back your claim that he was ridiculed then? Because that's what started all of this

Nope

Also in the interest of announcing exaggerations, Diaz-in-the-pocket comment was also exaggeration, Williams was excellent in that match though as scores indicate and I'm sure you'd agree.

Again I cant remember a lot about the game, I had a quick look at the highlights of the porto game and it seems he was caught out quite a bit high up the pitch (sound familiar to another Rb we have? )

Williams got very good ratings when he played last season, be it for Liverpool, Fulham or Wales. Certainly not a one-game wonder as you're portraying him to be, that's unfair to the lad.

And I said selling him was good business, the problem was that our replacement strategy meant we'll be missing a RB cover for months at the very least and after that we're left with a player that is at an even earlier level in his development

I would assume Klopp and team don't think they are too dissimilar in the levels of their development, Ramsey played the bulk of Aberdeen's league campaign and played in more European games than Neco did for example.

Controversial opinion: Dani Alves was overrated. Attack me

Spoiler

That is controversial!

I admit I do have a problem with players that take a place our squad and on paper are offering depth but in reality are rarely ready to play when called upon

I'm not so sure having a fully fit squad would have changed the results massively this season personally. Would it have changed the baffling decision to take our most productive player in and around the box and stick him out wide and never receive the ball? Would Elliot still be getting game time in the same position and system that is just not working? Would we still not have the cover in the spaces when Trent rampages forward?

i'd say we would be playing exactly the same way we are now, with the same issues. So far whatever problems we're facing is on Klopp and his stubbornness - mind you I cant remember the last time we have so many players form fall off a cliff at the same time.

 

[BaZ87]

He only started one league game

He started none and only came off the bench once, for 7 minutes when we beat Watford 5-0. Milner started all the games Trent wasn't available for and Gomez came on for him in 2 of the 3, ahead of Williams. Likewise he only played 1 minute in the CL outside the Porto and Milan games where he played alongside some of the greats - Tyler Morton and Nat Phillips.

If @HACO wants to argue that we should have signed better than Ramsay then fine but trying to suggest that him being 4th choice, in the short term, is any different to what Williams was last season is simply not true.

 

[HACO]

Come on, stop digging. Williams only played in games that had no meaning. In any match that had anything riding on, Williams didn't feature and often didn't even make the bench. Milner and Gomez, who was being eased back after a long injury lay-off, were picked ahead of him in any game that Trent wasn't available for.

Not my observation but as you say, not worth digging.

If @HACO wants to argue that we should have signed better than Ramsay then fine but trying to suggest that him being 4th choice, in the short term, is any different to what Williams was last season is simply not true.

Well, Williams was actually capable of playing football last season can't say the same thing about Ramsay.

More seriously though, my point was and continued to be, that while we have a good squad depth on paper but it lacks availability and/or quality and therefore causing squad problems. Our transfer policy has made us worse in this aspect, not better because we sign the same kind of problem players that give us headache every year, especially in midfield or defence. Our attackers are fine despite recent injuries.

Nope

Spoiler

I'm not so sure having a fully fit squad would have changed the results massively this season personally. Would it have changed the baffling decision to take our most productive player in and around the box and stick him out wide and never receive the ball? Would Elliot still be getting game time in the same position and system that is just not working? Would we still not have the cover in the spaces when Trent rampages forward?

Having more players available especially in midfield would have created more competition and would have allowed us to bench more of our poor performers. Also would have given us more options when it comes to system changes. If we had also signed a defensive midfielder this season (which was the plan until we didn't get our top target and then gave up), it would have allowed us to bench Fabinho and Henderson right now.

Either way we wouldn't be first even if we did all of that, but we probably also wouldn't have got only 2 points from 5 away matches and be only 7 points from the bottom of the table after 11 games (and 12 points off the top).

Moving Salah out wide is baffling, I don't get it and there's no excuse. I don't get why we don't play to his strength.

i'd say we would be playing exactly the same way we are now, with the same issues. So far whatever problems we're facing is on Klopp and his stubbornness - mind you I cant remember the last time we have so many players form fall off a cliff at the same time.

Agree with this. I'm not saying injuries are the only problems we're facing. But injuries and lack of depth take away options, plan Bs, and tie the coach's hands so we're just stuck with the same players who aren't performing and there's nothing we can do.

I don't think anyone can deny it that last season took its physical and mental toll, and not having a proper pre-season didn't help at all either and with the winter world cup things couldn't get worse for us. Our physical levels are nowhere near where they should be (some players seem to have aged 10 years since last season), and mentally we're not as sharp and focused. Even Mane hasn't been consistent for Bayern. Maybe this season was always going to be a hangover no matter what, I don't know.

Like I said back in August, despite the backlash I received from some very familiar usernames , the writing was on the wall even back then and I stand by my expectation for a successful season: top 4 league finish, winning 1 domestic cup and a good run in the champions league (hopefully semifinal or maybe winning it if we're a bit lucky with the draw). We definitely lack consistency to win the league but I still stand by this team's ability to win against any team in a cup competition.

 

[BaZ87]

We're talking about squad depth not because our squad has less quality or depth than last season but because too many of our first team players aren't performing to the same standard. To varying degrees Robertson, Trent, VVD, Fabinho, Henderson and Salah haven't played to the standard you expect and as a result we're relying on fringe players more than we have previously.

 

[HACO]

We're talking about squad depth not because our squad has less quality or depth than last season but because too many of our first team players aren't performing to the same standard. To varying degrees Robertson, Trent, VVD, Fabinho, Henderson and Salah haven't played to the standard you expect and as a result we're relying on fringe players more than we have previously.

That's a separate point and I agree with you. Last season our first team was performing and on occasions we relied on some of the fringe players and they delivered. But right now some of those fringe players aren't available either. Our first team players are underperforming, we don't have our second-choice players and our makeshift players offer compromises that our first-team can't cover because they're underperforming. It's a vicious circle and it leads to the mess we're currently in.

The only light at the end of the tunnel is that we may not have many players at the world cup. The only sure things are Alisson, Fabinho, VVD and Nunez. I think TAA, Bobby, Thiago and Henderson will go as well but some of them will return home early. The long break can work in our favour. So if we make it to the world cup within shouting distance of the top 4, there will be time to regroup and come back stronger and have a good go in the second half of the season, hopefully go on a long winning streak in the league and go for winning the champions league.

 

[C Kent]

Like I said back in August, despite the backlash I received from some very familiar usernames

You were wrong then just as you are now

We're talking about squad depth not because our squad has less quality or depth than last season but because too many of our first team players aren't performing to the same standard. To varying degrees Robertson, Trent, VVD, Fabinho, Henderson and Salah haven't played to the standard you expect and as a result we're relying on fringe players more than we have previously.

I think it's a few varying factors, injuries, players out of form and change in style - hopefully we're getting our injuries out the way early so we have a good run of no injuries post wc (i can dream cant I). But the players all being out of form at the same time and the new formation/style of play not working is something that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. It's almost like we've got a new system to take advantage of Man City's weaknesses but ignored the fact that there are 16 other teams out there that can and will change how they play to exploit the glaring holes we have. It's a small thing but indicative of a larger problem imo, but take how we used to switch play from fullback to fullback during the CL and EPL winning seasons, when was the last time we did that with any sort of regularity? You can argue that tactics need to evolve over time, but the counter to that is Man City, they play largely the same now as they did in Guardiola's 1st season.

 

[BaZ87]

That's a separate point and I agree with you. Last season our first team was performing and on occasions we relied on some of the fringe players and they delivered. But right now some of those fringe players aren't available either.

Beyond Keita I fail to see who these fringe players are that delivered for us last season and haven't been available this season. Our issues have fundamentally been the form (and in a few instances availability) of our core 14-15 players.

 

[HACO]

You were wrong then just as you are now

I think it's a few varying factors, injuries, players out of form and change in style - hopefully we're getting our injuries out the way early so we have a good run of no injuries post wc (i can dream cant I). But the players all being out of form at the same time and the new formation/style of play not working is something that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. It's almost like we've got a new system to take advantage of Man City's weaknesses but ignored the fact that there are 16 other teams out there that can and will change how they play to exploit the glaring holes we have. It's a small thing but indicative of a larger problem imo, but take how we used to switch play from fullback to fullback during the CL and EPL winning seasons, when was the last time we did that with any sort of regularity? You can argue that tactics need to evolve over time, but the counter to that is Man City, they play largely the same now as they did in Guardiola's 1st season.

We played like an underdog against City. Played to their weaknesses rather than our strengths (do we even have any?). I'm glad we did because otherwise we'd have been destroyed.

I think if we get our players performing again we don't need to change tactics all that much, apart from the natural evolution that comes with new players and player evolutions, etc... The problem isn't the old system, but that our players are not capable of playing it properly anymore and the boss isn't able to either get the players perform again or find another way of getting consistent results with players as they are.

Beyond Keita I fail to see who these fringe players are that delivered for us last season and haven't been available this season. Our issues have fundamentally been the form (and in a few instances availability) of our core 14-15 players.

I think you yourself posted Minamino and Origi's stats last season a while ago and how impressive they were as squad players, they were more than capable deputies whenever they played so we could comfortably rest our main players knowing they'll get the job done. We don't have that this season. Keita played a huge role as well so he shouldn't be dismissed easily. Ox and Jones also clocked 1500 minutes each last year, although in lesser games or as subs, but nevertheless they were more than acceptable whenever they played. In defence we always had a first-team CB cover ready and we managed Matip/Konate's time well. Now we're one player away from the team completely falling apart.

However, I agree that our bigger issue is poor form of the core 15 players.

 

[BaZ87]

Taki and Origi were invaluable in the domestic Cups but that's about it. Of course injuries have stretched the squad, particularly in a congested season but ultimately if your best players aren't playing well then you're not going to perform and too many of our best players haven't played well enough.

That said, I am worried about how we can cope without Jota and Diaz. We don't really have anybody that can play as a left forward now and I'm not sure how we can put out a balanced side, barring a massive change of formation, with both of them missing.

 

[HACO]

Salah on the right wing isn't working either. We need a system change until the World Cup. Bring Salah central alongside Nunez and play Bobby in the hole. Rely on fullbacks for width, have central midfielders cover them defensively.