Plumbing queries: lagging ID and press fit connections

[ik9000]

TLDR 1) Can anyone help ID this pipe lagging + is it likely to have asbestos in it? 2) are copper press fit connections any good?

-----
I've just lifted the floor in my extension (circa 1986) and have a few questions:

1) what is this lagging and is it likely to contain asbestos? I wasn't expecting to see it in the late 20th century parts of the house.
2) should i replace it? I have local areas i can get the floor up where the electricians already cut and lifted boards but getting to all the pipework will be tricky without lifting the majority of the floor (which i would like to avoid if possible)
3) is it ok to have electric ring mains close to heating pipes like that? (They're just serving the radiators, not an underfloor system)
4) my plumber claims the lagging is highly flammable and as such he can't solder onto the pipes due to risk of fire. He is insisting on using copper press fit connections. These are a new one on me. Are they any good? How do they compare to conventional solder joints, and are they ok to go under a floor where we won't have access in future once the furniture and carpets etc go back in? I don't want to agree to something that gives me a long term headache.
5) as an aside, does an anyone know a good way to clean the boards to remove the white gunk? It's a mix of plaster dust/plasterboard adhesive that has stuck to the boards where the old rubber waffle underlay once pressed against them. I've tried to clean them three times now and each time it looks like it's gone then reappears on drying.

 

[Showboat]

Why not just cut the old lagging off with some snips? And replace with modern stuff £2 per metre.
The plastic push fit connections are typically what plumbers use these days. I don’t think there’s any issues with them.

 

[ik9000]

Why not just cut the old lagging off with some snips? And replace with modern stuff £2 per metre.
The plastic push fit connections are typically what plumbers use these days. I don’t think there’s any issues with them.

I can't currently access all the piping, and i'm asking about copper press fit, not plastic push fit. Different things apparently (i had the same confusion for a while)

 

[UTT]

Why are you getting so involved?

Presumably your paying the plumber so just let him get on and do the job. If there's a problem later it will be down to him to sort

 

[Adam_151]

Its hairfelt, no asbestos, but probably not as good as modern insulation, replace it in the vicinity of works where you can but otherwise do not worry about it.

It is flamable, so needs to be kept away from the flame, I'd have thought that cutting it back, unsing a head sheild and having a water spray and fire extinguisher to hand would keep things safe. As long as press-fit is refering to the crimped fittings, then isnt a problem, thats whats used on sites when hot works are not allowed. I'd probably not be so keen to have the copper push fit used, but then again I probably just have a irrational dislike of push fit....

 

[ik9000]

Why are you getting so involved?

Presumably your paying the plumber so just let him get on and do the job. If there's a problem later it will be down to him to sort

I'm a bit surprised by this response. Wouldn't you want to know the longevity and reliability of products being used in your own house? As for the plumber sorting it out, that's fine if it's a noticeable short term thing, but if it happens in 5, 10 years or whatever? Not much chance he's doing anything about it then. Solder joints have been used for donkeys and if done properly last decades.

 

[ik9000]

Its hairfelt, no asbestos, but probably not as good as modern insulation, replace it in the vicinity of works where you can but otherwise do not worry about it.

It is flamable, so needs to be kept away from the flame, I'd have thought that cutting it back, unsing a head sheild and having a water spray and fire extinguisher to hand would keep things safe. As long as press-fit is refering to the crimped fittings, then isnt a problem, thats whats used on sites when hot works are not allowed. I'd probably not be so keen to have the copper push fit used, but then again I probably just have a irrational dislike of push fit....

Thank you that's helpful advice. I'm with you on press fit cynicsim. I'd be happy if it were visible above the floor, I just don't like using an unknown product below flooring. I suggested cutting the lagging back (assuming no asbestos issue) and using a heat shield. He was a bit funny about it, saying too risky etc etc. I think really he's paid a lot of money for a press fit machine and wants to use it. I'm now stuck either finding a different plumber or accepting press fit. He doesn't want to solder and I don't seem to be able to persuade him otherwise. i guess my concern is the rubber O-rings inside the press fit perishing with time. A solder connection doesn't have this issue SFAIK.

 

[Adam_151]

I'm with you on press fit cynicsim. I'd be happy if it were visible above the floor, I just don't like using an unknown product below flooring.

I'm fine on press-fit (crimped fittings), its used on a lot of commerical sites these days

I'm cynical on push fit, whether that be metal or plastic

P.S. Generally being flamable and containing asbestos are multually exclusive....

 

[ik9000]

I'm fine on press-fit (crimped fittings), its used on a lot of commerical sites these days

I'm cynical on push fit, whether that be metal or plastic

P.S. Generally being flamable and containing asbestos are multually exclusive....

yes it was me who queried asbestos, the plumber raised flammable risk. It just looks so old and ragged I'm amazed it was being used in the 1980s. Is it literally horse hair in some kind of clay mush?

Are foam lagging wraps a recent thing? I'd just assumed they'd been around forever. I can remember family using them in the early 1990s, I'd just assumed they'd been around as long as plastic and the like i.e. 1960s onwards. Apparently not if they were still using hair in 1986

 

[UTT]

I'm a bit surprised by this response. Wouldn't you want to know the longevity and reliability of products being used in your own house? As for the plumber sorting it out, that's fine if it's a noticeable short term thing, but if it happens in 5, 10 years or whatever? Not much chance he's doing anything about it then. Solder joints have been used for donkeys and if done properly last decades.

My approach would be to speak to the trades you are employing and make sure they are using kitemarked, BS EN approved, fit for purpose and accredited products. If the lagging was asbestos you know about it by now. If the pipework is within the building fabric and not required by building control I wouldn't bother. The sparks will have to sign off their work so if its installed incorrectly will have trouble with that. Press fit/crimped is generally more secure than push fit but again, if not installed correctly will fail.

Speak to your trades before they start and if you're not happy try and get another in

 

[ik9000]

Building control is the lazy man's safety net. I've seen too much get passed/get missed in areas i do know about to rely on that as the QA for my own house. Also the electrician self-certifies to the local authority so building control won't be inspecting it.

I am trying to get a 2nd opinion on the plumber's insistence on not using solder joints as the brief we gave them. I know what to expect with solder joints. I am not familiar with press fit. Would it be fair to read into your responses that you're not either?

 

[BennyC]

I wouldn't have any aversion to press-fit copper. If anything it's probably preferable to a traditional solder joint as (I may be wrong) but the likelihood of leaks are the same or lower than that of solder? I see press-fit similarly to a compression fitting but just external.

A soldered joint can look fine from the outside but if done poorly can have excess solder on the inside causing flow restrictions and issues later down the line.

Push-fit Hep20 fittings have a 50 year guarantee on them.

I think a lot of the stigma from plastic push-fit comes from being used without the proper pipe inserts or user error damaging the o-rings with unclean pipe cuts.

 

[ik9000]

I wouldn't have any aversion to press-fit copper. If anything it's probably preferable to a traditional solder joint as (I may be wrong) but the likelihood of leaks are the same or lower than that of solder? I see press-fit similarly to a compression fitting but just external.

A soldered joint can look fine from the outside but if done poorly can have excess solder on the inside causing flow restrictions and issues later down the line.

Push-fit Hep20 fittings have a 50 year guarantee on them.

I think a lot of the stigma from plastic push-fit comes from being used without the proper pipe inserts or user error damaging the o-rings with unclean pipe cuts.

50 year guarantee sounds good. I will ask him if his come similarly rated. This is press fit though, and from his description, relies on a combination of rubber o-ring and pressure crimped copper sleeve. I have seen rubber gaskets and o rings age and perish in just 10 years causing leaks in other things like toilet cisterns etc. I don't want that risk under my floors.

 

[UTT]

Building control is the lazy man's safety net. I've seen too much get passed/get missed in areas i do know about to rely on that as the QA for my own house. Also the electrician self-certifies to the local authority so building control won't be inspecting it.

I am trying to get a 2nd opinion on the plumber's insistence on not using solder joints as the brief we gave them. I know what to expect with solder joints. I am not familiar with press fit. Would it be fair to read into your responses that you're not either?

Given the choice I'd go for crimped fittings as my preference

No hot works needed and a guaranteed joint