COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion

[Colonel_Klinck]

Guys you are arguing with someone who used to post link to this site as evidence of what ever lunacy he was pushing at the time

The Donald

The Donald is a never-ending rally of patriots dedicated to the 45th President of the United States, Donald J. Trump.

patriots.win

 

[Pottsey]

Good god, are people still spouting this vile nonsense?

It's INFECTIOUS people not taking precautions while symptomatic causing problems, vaccination status is irrelevant.

Its not vale nonsense what is vale nonsense are the conspiracy theory nuts in this thread who think the vaccine is bad and people making comments like you have. Vaccination status is very relevant and impacts the spread of the virus with or without people taking precautions. None vaccinated people who take precautions are still more likely to spread the virus over vaccinated people taking precautions. The problem is far more then just infectious people not taking precautions.

 

[Rroff]

As much as I hate symptomatic people taking no precautions or worse getting in people's faces all the while saying how they are trying to avoid spreading whatever they have !?!?! with many of these kind of diseases you can be infectious for around 24 hours before symptoms appear - though with COVID apparently that is only 20-25% of cases.

EDIT: Depending on vaccination status the contagious period before symptoms can be reduced as well.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

As much as I hate symptomatic people taking no precautions or worse getting in people's faces all the while saying how they are trying to avoid spreading whatever they have !?!?! with many of these kind of diseases you can be infectious for around 24 hours before symptoms appear - though with COVID apparently that is only 20-25% of cases.

EDIT: Depending on vaccination status the contagious period before symptoms can be reduced as well.

First time I caught it in Nov 2020 the person who gave it to me didn't develop symptoms until at least 24 hours after I saw her. That was a big part of the problem. Its easy to isolate and protect others when you know you aren't well, when you feel fine but aren't its another story.

 

[Orangeade]

I may be mistaken, but I believe Goodie is a cardiologist. Incidently, @Goodie I had a stroll down lower Trent the other day but it was empty. Back in tomorrow, so will have another mooch about.

Edit: not worth it.

 

[CapitalOne]

Opinions are ok, 25 million incapacitated and 7 million in A&E is not

 

[Hedge]

Opinions are ok, 25 million incapacitated and 7 million in A&E is not

Incapacited is a strong word but I can also say in my experience I've known plenty of people have a day off work following their vaccine. If that's what he was getting at.

 

[Werewolf]

Incapacited is a strong word but I can also say in my experience I've known plenty of people have a day off work following their vaccine. If that's what he was getting at.

The same is/has been true of many of the other "traditional" vaccines in the past as well though, but with the covid jabs there are a lot of people who were probably getting their first vaccines as adults/for decades and everyone seemed to be watching out for even just the sore arm type effect*.
When you've got most of the adult population getting a vaccine in a relatively short space of time you're probably going to see the whole range of normal reactions to it, but people talked about it rather than the normal odd, widely spread out comments you might see from time to time about "did the flu jab this year make you feel manky over night?"
IIRC the first and third covid jabs knocked me out overnight and left me with a sore arm, but not much if any worse than some of the flu jabs i've had over the last 25 years (well within what I'd say was "normal range" for a vaccine).



*Which IIRC is as much to do with the fact you've had a needle pushed into the muscle and anything injected (IE just saline could give you a sore arm) as anything else.

 

[enkoda]

Its not vale nonsense what is vale nonsense are the conspiracy theory nuts in this thread who think the vaccine is bad and people making comments like you have. Vaccination status is very relevant and impacts the spread of the virus with or without people taking precautions. None vaccinated people who take precautions are still more likely to spread the virus over vaccinated people taking precautions. The problem is far more then just infectious people not taking precautions.

Person X is vaccinated, tests positive, has symptoms, 100% infectious.
Person Y is unvaccinated, tests negative, has no symptoms, virus free, 0% infectious.

According to you, Person Y is more likely to spread the virus....?

 

[Uther]

Still waiting for those links @tang0

 

[Tephnos]

The same is/has been true of many of the other "traditional" vaccines in the past as well though, but with the covid jabs there are a lot of people who were probably getting their first vaccines as adults/for decades and everyone seemed to be watching out for even just the sore arm type effect*.
When you've got most of the adult population getting a vaccine in a relatively short space of time you're probably going to see the whole range of normal reactions to it, but people talked about it rather than the normal odd, widely spread out comments you might see from time to time about "did the flu jab this year make you feel manky over night?"
IIRC the first and third covid jabs knocked me out overnight and left me with a sore arm, but not much if any worse than some of the flu jabs i've had over the last 25 years (well within what I'd say was "normal range" for a vaccine).



*Which IIRC is as much to do with the fact you've had a needle pushed into the muscle and anything injected (IE just saline could give you a sore arm) as anything else.

Flu jab hit me worse last year than any of my COVID jabs. It took the higher dosage Moderna bivalent for me to feel equally rough.

 

[Duke]

Updated stats today, still going in the right direction and hopefully dips lower this time than last time. @SexyGreyFox does this match with what you're seeing on the wards?

UKHSA data dashboard

Showing public health data across England

coronavirus.data.gov.uk

 

[Rroff]

Updated stats today, still going in the right direction and hopefully dips lower this time than last time.

I'm surprised we've not seen a bigger spike post Christmas, it seemed to slightly slow the rate of decline but no upwards movement. COVID (and for the most part the colds/flu which were going around) seems to have all but vanished around here again after briefly picking up late December/early Jan and now no one I know has it.

Not sure it is going to dip right down though - probably going to be blips up and down over the next little while especially if one of the newer Omicron variants gets a foot in the country proper.

 

[tang0]

Incapacited is a strong word but I can also say in my experience I've known plenty of people have a day off work following their vaccine. If that's what he was getting at.

This is what I was getting at, and all I did was quote a certain Dr that got censored everywhere, and he just relayed public VAERs data

 

[Pottsey]

This is what I was getting at, and all I did was quote a certain Dr that got censored everywhere, and he just relayed public VAERs data

Did you stop to think the reason he got censored was because the numbers he is talking about are completely fake and don't make any sense. The public data doesn't appear to remotely match what you are quoting the doctor said. Which makes the rest of your post based off that doctors information wrong.

 

[Pottsey]

Person X is vaccinated, tests positive, has symptoms, 100% infectious.
Person Y is unvaccinated, tests negative, has no symptoms, virus free, 0% infectious.

According to you, Person Y is more likely to spread the virus....?

You have it wrong. That's not according to me.

My thought was more

Original person doesn't have the vaccine and has Covid and doesn't know they are infectious and goes into a meeting. Person A in the meeting doesn't have the vaccine and later becomes 100% infectious spreading Covid further. Person B has the vaccine and due to that is 50% less infectious causing less of a Covid spread. Person C has the vaccine and due to that doesn't catch Covid and instead of being 100% infectious is now 0%.

If the original person had the vaccine the spread might have stopped there. If Person A had the vaccine the spread might have been massively reduced or 100% stopped there. If person B and C didn't have the Covid vaccine the spread of the virus would have been massively worse. Vaccination status is very relevant and impacts the spread of the virus.

I am all for people having a choice if they take the vaccine or not. But to call the benefits vale nonsense like you have is just wrong.

 

[Rroff]

Person B has the vaccine and due to that is 50% less infectious causing less of a Covid spread. Person C has the vaccine and due to that doesn't catch Covid and instead of being 100% infectious is now 0%.

Despite the media and government messaging that isn't how it works. If you've recently had the vaccine it will generally shorten the period you are infectious for before symptoms and if you've had the vaccine at all with the last few months it will generally shorten the period you are infectious for but the peak infectivity is still similar. It gets more complicated again because the most transmission events happen around the peak infectivity in the hours before someone becomes symptomatic and up to about 3 days later, which largely still happen vaccinated or not, while being vaccinated might mean you stop being infectious a few days earlier than someone unvaccinated that is towards the end of the infectious period and outside the window where the bulk of transmission events occur.

With some variants of Omicron the peak infectivity can be pushed a bit further out to 3-6 days where the vaccine has been seen to have the effect of quite quickly clearing the virus immediately after the peak which has a slightly bigger impact on the window where most transmission events occur but not a fundamental impact.

(With whatever variant, I suspect XBB.1.5 but can only guess, we had go around here though people were coming out with symptoms only 2-3 days after they must have been exposed to it - which means transmission was pretty early on!).

I'm generalising a bit there because it actually gets a lot more complicated than that and I don't fully understand all the mechanics involved.

The vaccines are robust at preventing hospitalisation and death in the more vulnerable which is backed up here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports and overall do have some impact on transmission and prevalence in society but have a far more limited impact on direct transmission than has been made out - to the point the official studies persistently just wave it away with vague comments and "data not yet available" LOL.

 

[Pottsey]

Despite the media and government messaging that isn't how it works. If you've recently had the vaccine it will generally shorten the period you are infectious for before symptoms and if you've had the vaccine at all with the last few months it will generally shorten the period you are infectious for but the peak infectivity is still similar. It gets more complicated again because the most transmission events happen around the peak infectivity in the hours before someone becomes symptomatic and up to about 3 days later, which largely still happen vaccinated or not, while being vaccinated might mean you stop being infectious a few days earlier than someone unvaccinated that is towards the end of the infectious period and outside the window where the bulk of transmission events occur.

With some variants of Omicron the peak infectivity can be pushed a bit further out to 3-6 days where the vaccine has been seen to have the effect of quite quickly clearing the virus immediately after the peak which has a slightly bigger impact on the window where most transmission events occur but not a fundamental impact.

(With whatever variant, I suspect XBB.1.5 but can only guess, we had go around here though people were coming out with symptoms only 2-3 days after they must have been exposed to it - which means transmission was pretty early on!).

I'm generalising a bit there because it actually gets a lot more complicated than that and I don't fully understand all the mechanics involved.

The vaccines are robust at preventing hospitalisation and death in the more vulnerable which is backed up here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports and overall do have some impact on transmission and prevalence in society but have a far more limited impact on direct transmission than has been made out - to the point the official studies persistently just wave it away with vague comments and "data not yet available" LOL.

Just checking I have this right. So you you could infect less people due to a shorter infectivity period but not automatically be less infectious at peak. Generalising is the only real way to do this as there are just to many factors involved in real life. It also doesn't help with the differing vaccines and variants of Covid.

 

[CapitalOne]

This is what I was getting at, and all I did was quote a certain Dr that got censored everywhere, and he just relayed public VAERs data

Yet did not think the numbers were absurd. Sounds like it fitted your view so you went for it

 

[Rroff]

Just checking I have this right. So you you could infect less people due to a shorter infectivity period but not automatically be less infectious at peak. Generalising is the only real way to do this as there are just to many factors involved in real life. It also doesn't help with the differing vaccines and variants of Covid.

It gets quite complicated especially as different Omicron variants can act very differently to each other and especially different to Alpha and Delta, and some Omicron variants do have a lower peak viral load if vaccinated - especially recent vaccination. Broadly though in most cases the vaccine does not reduce the peak viral load and infectivity compared to unvaccinated to a significant amount or at all. What the vaccine can do is reduce how long the period you are infectious for by clearing the viral infection faster - on paper that sounds good because it can be a significant percentage of the time you are infectious but there is more to it than that because it shrinks the overall period of infectiousness but doesn't shrink the window where most transmission events happen. Especially a large part of the shrunk window is when people have already started to take precautions and/or isolate themselves once symptoms have appeared so are transmitting less anyway.