Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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VincentHanna said:
Do they not move it around regularly then? The Patriot missile defence trucks I mean.
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It doesn't matter if they move it, if the Russians can lock on to the radar signature as alleged and it being a system where the radar is needed to track the targets, unless they start running systems with multiple radars, or develop a system that can pretend to be a radar and masks the true radar somehow
 
muon said:
Each Kinzhal missile costs $10m.
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The "value" of missiles can't really be directly compared between Russia and the west, I had it explained perfectly to me once by a Russian friend who works in the UK defence sector (numbers are for illustration only):

If the UK government commissions a £20bn missile program that will take 5 years and produce missiles worth £8m. The end result will be a missile program worth £20bn that actually cost £25-30bn due to overspending, took 6-7 years due to overruns, and produces missiles worth £8m that now cost £12m due to supply chain inflation/gouging.

If the Russian government commissions a £20bn missile program that will take 5 years and produce missiles worth £8m. The end result will be a missile program worth £10-15bn that still cost 20bn due to corruption, took 7-10 years due to dealing with issues caused by the corruption, and produces missiles worth £4m due to substandard parts/design that still cost £8m due to the ongoing corruption.
 
Minusorange said:
It doesn't matter if they move it, if the Russians can lock on to the radar signature as alleged and it being a system where the radar is needed to track the targets, unless they start running systems with multiple radars, or develop a system that can pretend to be a radar and masks the true radar somehow
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However Russia do need to use a missile that homes in on RADAR - probably KH58 or KH31,their version of HARM. If they are using Kinzhal they would need to know where the battery is before firing.
 
Cost is a funny thing in these scenarios as well; as it all basically gets pumped back into the domestic economy. Blowing up missions is great for Stevenage for example.
 
ubersonic said:
The "value" of missiles can't really be directly compared between Russia and the west, I had it explained perfectly to me once by a Russian friend who works in the UK defence sector (numbers are for illustration only):

If the UK government commissions a £20bn missile program that will take 5 years and produce missiles worth £8m. The end result will be a missile program worth £20bn that actually cost £25-30bn due to overspending, took 6-7 years due to overruns, and produces missiles worth £8m that now cost £12m due to supply chain inflation/gouging.

If the Russian government commissions a £20bn missile program that will take 5 years and produce missiles worth £8m. The end result will be a missile program worth £10-15bn that still cost 20bn due to corruption, took 7-10 years due to dealing with issues caused by the corruption, and produces missiles worth £4m due to substandard parts/design that still cost £8m due to the ongoing corruption.
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The 'west' price is literally the cost they are selling the system to Switzerland for. It will have a healthy profit included.

Also its the cost to the russian government that matters anyway.
 
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muon said:
The 'west' price is literally the cost they are selling the system to Switzerland for. It will have a healthy profit included.

Also its the cost to the russian government that matters anyway.
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These economics only work if you develop but don't then use the missile system to effect or protect human life.

The number of failures from the use of substandard parts therefore has a larger and wider implication on both effectiveness and the number of casualties accordingly.

If you look at it - the west's higher cost then would be more effective per shot. If the Russian programme left their forces wondering if they actually work.. well that is a clear example - regardless of the cost, ask the people on the front line what they find useful or what is dependable..
 
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For reference, the Pentagon only approves and buys into missiles that have a demonstrated success rate of a minimum of 90%. The pentagon estimates that Russia's missiles have a success rate of 50% to 60%

Therefore Russia's missile must cost at least half of what comparable western missiles do, otherwise they are not competitive
 
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Reading about how the Patriot system works on Wikipedia is interesting AF:

en.wikipedia.org

MIM-104 Patriot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Following is the process a PAC-3 firing battery uses to engage a single tactical ballistic missile with two PAC-3 missiles:
  1. A missile is detected by the AN/MPQ-65 radar. The radar reviews the speed, altitude, behavior, and radar cross-section of the target. If this data lines up with the discrimination parameters set into the system, the missile is presented on the screen of the operator as a ballistic missile target.
  2. In the AN/MSQ-104 Engagement Control Station, the TCO reviews the speed, altitude, and trajectory of the track and then authorizes engagement. Upon authorizing engagement, the TCO instructs his TCA to bring the system's launchers into "operate" mode from "standby" mode. The engagement will take place automatically at the moment the computer defines the parameters that ensure the highest probability of kill.
  3. The system computer determines which of the battery's launchers have the highest probability of kill and selects them to fire. Two missiles are launched 4.2 seconds apart in a "ripple".
  4. The AN/MPQ-65 radar continues tracking the target and uploads intercept information to the PAC-3 missiles which are now outbound to intercept.
  5. Upon reaching its terminal homing phase, the Ka band active radar seeker in the nose of the PAC-3 missile acquires the inbound ballistic missile. This radar selects the radar return most likely to be the warhead of the incoming missile and directs the interceptor towards it.
  6. The ACMs (attitude control motors) of the PAC-3 missile fire to precisely align the missile on the interception trajectory.
  7. The interceptor flies straight through the warhead of the inbound ballistic missile, detonating it and destroying the missile.
  8. The second missile locates any debris which may be a warhead and attacks in a similar manner.
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They must be hoovering up some excellent data being used this heavily.
 
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Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
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This is unfortunate and probably unavoidable

With Russia's other missiles they are targeting civilian buildings and fuel storage in Kyiv region so when they get shot down by air defence the debris lands against buildings or in the streets

But Russia is using Kinzhals to directly target the Patriot launchers and the patriots are doing the intercept in terminal phase - so after the Kinzhal is intercepted it's debris is still heading in the general direction of the Patriot launcher and it sounds like the debris of one of the Kinzhals has damaged a launcher
 
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StriderX said:
Typical really... overhyped trash and they blame the guys who made it instead of the hypefiends.
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I suppose that clearly tells us who over-sold the Kinzhal to Putin!! Or, who the person that over-sold it managed to blame.... :cry:

What I don't really understand about Putins tactics of threat and exaggeration, is that it may work on his own people, and it may work on the general population of the West, but it clearly doesn't work on the West's military, who really are the people that count in this.
 
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www.reuters.com

Patriot missile defense system in Ukraine likely damaged, US officials say

A U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system being used by Ukraine likely suffered some damage from a Russian strike, two U.S. officials said on Tuesday, adding that it did not appear to have been destroyed.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Looks like that last flash was 1 Kinzhal getting through. Needing a volley of the latest missiles you have to target a SAM system is incredible really.
 
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Harlequin said:

www.reuters.com

Patriot missile defense system in Ukraine likely damaged, US officials say

A U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system being used by Ukraine likely suffered some damage from a Russian strike, two U.S. officials said on Tuesday, adding that it did not appear to have been destroyed.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Looks like that last flash was 1 Kinzhal getting through. Needing a volley of the latest missiles you have to target a SAM system is incredible really.
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Grim5 said:
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yup, its how a `complex` is supposed to be, the battery is large (10 vehicles or more), 6 TEL`s each with 4 rounds and the tracking, engagement and power vehicles. If a launcher was damaged you have 5 more, if one of the others was damaged, the battery will be out of action till its fixed or replaced.
 
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