What would you regard to be fair current gen prices?

[Joxeon]

Interesting and fair point. Aren't 3060 Tis binned 3070s though?

They are but then the 4080 isnt using the full die either while the AD103 is also 13mm2 smaller than the GA104.

 

[gjbf1]

They are but then the 4080 isnt using the full die either while the AD103 is also 13mm2 smaller than the GA104.

Okay fair enough.

 

[Calin Banc]

As technology advances R&D and manufacturing costs typically rise too, in addition inflation of most economies make materials, logistics, energy, property, wages etc. higher. Competition for silicon is also still high. I'm certainly not defending current prices, but 50% or more for top end compared to 10+ years ago wouldn't seem completely unreasonable.

I don't know tons about manufacturing, but I do manage teams of software engineers, I'm paying them circa 50% more than a few years ago, plus energy, T&E, rent have all increased considerably too. Products I make haven't fundamentally changed in the past few years but my costs definitely have and unfortunately some of that must be passed on to the consumer.



Interesting and fair point. Aren't 3060 Tis binned 3070s though?

Considering PS5 sold (at least for a while) at a profit, the cost aren't as high as you'd believe.

Look at Fury series or Vega. Those were big dies, including more expensive HBM memory and also a water cooler. Those were around 5-600 dollars MSRP. Even at 50% Increase in 6 years (since Vega 64), you won't get the silly prices we have today.

 

[gjbf1]

Considering PS5 sold (at least for a while) at a profit, the cost aren't as high as you'd believe.

Look at Fury series or Vega. Those were big dies, including more expensive HBM memory and also a water cooler. Those were around 5-600 dollars MSRP. Even at 50% Increase in 6 years (since Vega 64), you won't get the silly prices we have today.

Agreed. I'm not suggesting +/- £1k is acceptable, just that £400 top teir cards is no longer realistic either.

 

[Murphy]

The 4080 should be 450.

Seeing as it's estimated to cost them something in the range of £600 in materiels alone i can't see that happening.

 

[Deleted User 234324]

I bought my first proper gpu in 2001 for £350, the Geforce 3 Ti 500.

Top spec card for nv20 range back then. In today's money it would be £625.

So in my eyes the 4090 should be about £650 with the low end cards like the 4060 being sub £200 even sub £150.

A mid range gpu for around £350 seems reasonable.

 

[gjbf1]

Seeing as it's estimated to cost them something in the range of £600 in materiels alone i can't see that happening.

Where did you see that?

 

[Murphy]

Where did you see that?

You can do the calculations/adding up of component cost yourself but KompuKare put together a handy chart here. And i posted about calculating die costs sometime ago here, you can get within a few $ of the costs of GDDR by searching Google and getting an average from various sources. The costs of the PCB, SMDs, and cooler are pretty minimal so at most (like on a 4090) would only contribute something like £150, probably more like £50 at the lower end.

 

[gjbf1]

You can do the calculations/adding up of component cost yourself but KompuKare put together a handy chart here. And i posted about calculating die costs sometime ago here, you can get within a few $ of the costs of GDDR by searching Google and getting an average from various sources. The costs of the PCB, SMDs, and cooler are pretty minimal so at most (like on a 4090) would only contribute something like £150, probably more like £50 at the lower end.

Nice! That's very interesting thanks for posting I'll take a look. So £600 for a 4080 by your calculations? That certainly goes some way to validating the cost, but margin is still about 100%.

 

[TNA]

I bought my first proper gpu in 2001 for £350, the Geforce 3 Ti 500.

Top spec card for nv20 range back then. In today's money it would be £625.

So in my eyes the 4090 should be about £650 with the low end cards like the 4060 being sub £200 even sub £150.

A mid range gpu for around £350 seems reasonable.

They could do that. But then we would not have 4090 performance available for another generation or two as the die sizes would have to be smaller across the board.

Plus you are not taking r&d costs into account which have sky rocketed.

Basically looking back like this does not work and will only serve to frustrate you. I do believe they could be selling them much cheaper than they do now. Like the 4080 should be no more than £749 but expecting it to be much lower than that is not realistic, especially in a duopoly (Intel does not count yet imo) where behaviour like price fixing seems to be going on.

 

[Murphy]

Nice! That's very interesting thanks for posting I'll take a look. So £600 for a 4080 by your calculations? That certainly goes some way to validating the cost, but margin is still about 100%.

Roughly but don't quote me. TBH I've probably over-estimated as i suspect Nvidia and AIBs will have some bulk order discounts in place and obviously prices of all the components that go into making a card will vary, having said that IMO you're looking at around that price for a 4080 in materiels. Obviously you need to add some money onto that for R&D, ongoing cost like warranties and driver development, but personally I'd say an extra 50% margin would be more than enough to cover those, not a 100% markup.

 

[gjbf1]

Roughly but don't quote me. TBH I've probably over-estimated as i suspect Nvidia and AIBs will have some bulk order discounts in place and obviously prices of all the components that go into making a card will vary, having said that IMO you're looking at around that price for a 4080 in materiels. Obviously you need to add some money onto that for R&D, ongoing cost like warranties and driver development, but personally I'd say an extra 50% margin would be more than enough to cover those, not a 100% markup.

Yes. I think if they lowered the prices to match that of the card below it (so a 4080 would be £800 like a 4070TI and so on) then things would be much better. Still expensive but a lot better.

 

[Calin Banc]

They could do that. But then we would not have 4090 performance available for another generation or two as the die sizes would have to be smaller across the board.

Plus you are not taking r&d costs into account which have sky rocketed.

Basically looking back like this does not work and will only serve to frustrate you. I do believe they could be selling them much cheaper than they do now. Like the 4080 should be no more than £749 but expecting it to be much lower than that is not realistic, especially in a duopoly (Intel does not count yet imo) where behaviour like price fixing seems to be going on.

R&D is split between all markets. You can recoup a lot from the professional market.

 

[Deleted User 234324]

They could do that. But then we would not have 4090 performance available for another generation or two as the die sizes would have to be smaller across the board.

Plus you are not taking r&d costs into account which have sky rocketed.

Basically looking back like this does not work and will only serve to frustrate you. I do believe they could be selling them much cheaper than they do now. Like the 4080 should be no more than £749 but expecting it to be much lower than that is not realistic, especially in a duopoly (Intel does not count yet imo) where behaviour like price fixing seems to be going on.

The whole die size issue shouldn't be relevant, if nvidia wanted to maximise efficiency and performance they would be going down the chiplet design path that AMD have chosen. Not only does it become more efficient, but you end up with similar performance numbers and a significant cost reduction as your yield rates improve dramatically.

 

[dave28]

Everyone who priced the 4090 quite close to the 4080 would literally not sell a single 4080.

The 4090 is considerably better. There should be a 4080 Ti to bridge the gap.

 

[tommybhoy]

-40%

Ditch the gimmick software and bring back mgpu if you want actual fps.

 

[Perfect_Chaos]

Everyone who priced the 4090 quite close to the 4080 would literally not sell a single 4080.

The 4090 is considerably better. There should be a 4080 Ti to bridge the gap.

Yes maybe so but still prices need to drop by at least 20-30%.

 

[dave28]

Yes maybe so but still prices need to drop by at least 20-30%.

Sadly i think it will get worse, maybe they will keep the prices similar for the 50 series but its not going to be all that long before a top GPU is £1999.99 for a founders edition.

 

[TNA]

R&D is split between all markets. You can recoup a lot from the professional market.

Sure and if they sold a 4090 at £650 and the rest of the line below that then they would not be recouping much from the gamer market.

Don't get me wrong would absolutely love it but it just does not make any sense to me.

The whole die size issue shouldn't be relevant, if nvidia wanted to maximise efficiency and performance they would be going down the chiplet design path that AMD have chosen. Not only does it become more efficient, but you end up with similar performance numbers and a significant cost reduction as your yield rates improve dramatically.

These things take ages from the time they decide to design to the time it is available. Not like they could decide that today and have it ready for next gen cards.

Based on what you said AMD must be really mugging us off with their 7900 lineup. Would be insane profit margins as they should be selling the 7900 XTX for like £400 or something

 

[gjbf1]

Sure and if they sold a 4090 at £650 and the rest of the line below that then they would not be recouping much from the gamer market.

Don't get me wrong would absolutely love it but it just does not make any sense to me.




These things take ages from the time they decide to design to the time it is available. Not like they could decide that today and have it ready for next gen cards.

Based on what you said AMD must be really mugging us off with their 7900 lineup. Would be insane profit margins as they should be selling the 7900 XTX for like £400 or something

Yeah... As they're not the market innovators they really obviously just pricing their cards off the closest Nvidia card minus 5/10%.