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Just what is NVIDIA up to?

The naming is cynical. Now if Navi 32 is some Radeon R700,and RDNA3 is fixed,etc maybe we could be seeing some 3GHZ monster of a mainstream dGPU. Maybe it is justified.

But the fact AMD wants to call this a RX7800XT and not an RX7800,and the fact the RX7900XT is £700 and above means there is a huge gap. So unless AMD releases an RX7900 16GB which is their RTX4070 competitor,the RX7800XT is going to be a £500+ card. Where is the RX7800 then? I doubt it will be under £500 too.

So where does that place the RX7700XT? Its going to be a cutdown Navi32 chip possibly a third level salvage,and probably will be priced more than an RTX4060TI. Last generation we got a fully enabled 335MM2 Navi 22 from £420 onwards.

This increasing is feeling like this:

AMD might technically win as they offer more VRAM,but the Nvidia offerings are atrocious value. The RTX4070 was 45% faster than an RTX3060TI for 60% more money at launch.

Isn't the 7900 GRE (stupid name) not $649? Apparently.
 
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What he said in the 7900XTX review.

Referring to the 4080 he said "why would you care about the extra $200, wouldn't you just buy the superior product"

Its superior because RT and DLSS.
From the 7900XTX review:

"In almost every measurable metric the RTX 4080 is a superior product to that of the 7900XTX. The RTX 4080 offers comparable rasterization performance, significantly better ray-tracing performance, better up-scaling as DLSS is superior to FSR, it also uses less power and the media engine is better supported."

Everything above is factually correct.

"Really, the only thing going for the 7900XTX is the fact that it's 17% cheaper but I feel like when spending $1000 on a graphics card that's a lot of money - do you really care about $200? Wouldn't you just spend the extra money to get the superior product?"

"$1000 is a lot of money to be spending on a graphics card; at that point are you really looking to cut corners on ray-tracing performance, upscaling and so-on?"


At the XTX's launch price of $1000 I think this appraisal was spot on. Now, you may feel that RT and DLSS aren't worth the price premium, but that's down to the needs of the individual buyer - personally, I'd say they're worth some premium.

Lastly, Steve also states:

"The RTX 4080 sucks at the current asking price and that's not just me saying that, it's gamers at large as sales across the globe for the RTX 4080 have been extremely weak."

 
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Isn't the 7900 GRE (stupid name) not $649?

But the 7900GRE is a limited release for China and some system builders. So that gap exists for most of the world.

If this was ATI I would trust they had a reason. But as this is AMD and they don't seem to learn IMHO. I like to be proved wrong but I have low expectations.
 
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@Aegis yes he's upselling the 4080, just as he did in the 7900XT review.

But the 7900GRE is a limited release for China and some system builders. So that gap exists for most of the world.

If this was ATI I would trust they had a reason. But as this is AMD and they don't seem to learn IMHO. I like to be proved wrong but I have low expectations.

Right ok.

The 4070 exists, its crap, a 16GB 256Bit 7800XT would be the better GPU, but the bar charts will say they are the same, and then DLSS, RT.... realistically AMD would have to price it 10% lower just to sell 10% or 15% as many, $550.

ATI went bust trying to chase marketshare against Nvidia.
 
$500 it isn't going to make Nvidia flitch because it would make very little difference to the marketshare.

HUB are accused of being AMD fanboys and yet he thinks the 4080 is the one to get at a 20% premium over the 7900XTX, because DLSS and RT, wich is only significantly better in gamers where Nvidia smaple far more rays per pixel than is nessesary to get the best IQ, like tessolation it makes no visual difference, murders the performance on Nvidia GPU but even more so on AMD GPU's, its a decades old trick and none one cares. Because Nvidia have 90% marketshare why should they care about what makes AMD look bad.
 
@Aegis yes he's upselling the 4080, just as he did in the 7900XT review.



Right ok.

The 4070 exists, its crap, a 16GB 256Bit 7800XT would be the better GPU, but the bar charts will say they are the same, and then DLSS, RT.... realistically AMD would have to price it 10% lower just to sell 10% or 15% as many, $550.

ATI went bust trying to chase marketshare against Nvidia.

Just look at TPU figures since 2016.

Last generation,an RTX3060TI was 40% faster than an RTX2060 Super and both were under £400.The RTX2060 Super was 35% faster than a GTX1070 and was under £400.The GTX1070 was 60% faster than a GTX970 and both were under £400.

The RTX4070 is 40% to 45% faster than an RTX3060TI and is nearly £600,ie,60% more. The RX7800XT offering the same is still crap value because it is really an RX7700XT.

The RTX4070 should be an RTX4060TI 12GB for £400. A RX6800XT is 36% faster than an RX6700XT and 25% faster than an RX6750XT:

So the pretend fake RX7800XT needs to be closer to £400.

Its clear to me Turing V1 and the Pandemic have done a number on people's minds.

How have Nvidia/AMD managed PCMR expectations that they think 30% to 40% improvements are going to bankrupt? This is normal.

Its all fake news from Nvidia/AMD marketing on social media,where they will both go bankrupt for doing normal generational improvements.
 
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Just look at TPU figures since 2016.

Last generation,an RTX3060TI was 40% faster than an RTX2060 Super and both were under £400.The RTX2060 Super was 35% faster than a GTX1070 and was under £400.The GTX1070 was 60% faster than a GTX970 and both were under £400.

The RTX4070 is 40% to 45% faster than an RTX3060TI and is nearly £600,ie,60% more. The RX7800XT offering the same is still crap value because it is really an RX7700XT.

The RTX4070 should be an RTX4060TI 12GB for £400. A RX6800XT is 36% faster than an RX6700XT and 25% faster than an RX6750XT:

Its clear to me Turing V1 and the Pandemic have done a number on people's minds.

How have Nvidia/AMD managed PCMR expectations that they think 30% to 40% improvements are going to bankrupt? This is normal.

Its all fake news from Nvidia/AMD marketing on social media,where they will both go bankrupt for doing normal generational improvements.

I don't nessesarily disagree with any of that, but tell me, do you think prices should remain the same forever or do you think its reasonable for Nvidia / AMD to price up with inflation?
 
I don't nessesarily disagree with any of that, but tell me, do you think prices should remain the same forever or do you think its reasonable for Nvidia / AMD to price up with inflation?

The inflation meme for dGPUs is more fake news spread on social media by their PR to jack up prices. Why not use Zimbabwe and Turkey inflation rates? Then a £2000 RTX4070 would look great value.

There was fake news spread just before Kepler was released of how "expensive" 28NM was,etc and people kept repeating it when they priced the Titan at £1000. It did cost more but not to the level they were spinning.

Plenty of small and medium businesses in the UK are cutting margins,despite rising energy costs and interest rates in Europe so they have no entitlement to expect us to increase their margins. So why do these tech companies get a freebie? They don't especially as they get lots of tax breaks and money thrown at them by the US taxpayer like the CHIPs act. In 2018 Nvidia paid no Federal taxes. Let the US taxpayer prop them up - if Nvidia and AMD want us to prop them up build your stuff in Europe then and give us tax revenue. There is more chance of Intel doing than either Nvidia or AMD.

Plus the RTX3000 and RX6000 series were introduced 9~18 months into a Global Pandemic. China/Taiwan were locked down,global shipping costs were high,GDDR6 prices were high,labour disruptions. The RRPs reflected that as was the streetprice.

Remember this pricing was from last year,long before the recent AI hype.

If there was no Pandemic the RX6700XT would be priced at under £400. Why did you think Nvidia introduced the RTX3060 12GB,RTX3070TI and RTX3080TI? They realised they missed out on a payday so wanted to reset pricing. AMD launched later so the RX6600XT/RX6700XT had this baked in.

Plus lets look at the other factors:
1.)They are made in China and Taiwan.Chinese inflation is under 1% and Taiwanese inflation is under 2% so is not important.

2.)Chinese and Taiwanese energy costs are not affected by the problems in Europe.

3.)No more lockdowns,so free movement of labour.

4.)Global shipping companies are charging much less. Their profits have collapsed.

5.)GDDR6 pricing has collapsed.

6.)Components are much easier to get now.

So any increases in TSMC costs are more then compensated for by all the other costs dropping.

What these companies have done is overproduce dGPUs for miners and gamers willing to pay above RRP. This happened in 2017/2018 and why Turing was a ripoff.

They overproduced billions of USD of dGPUs,and greedily expected mining prices for the next few years. Now that mining has collapsed they need to spin to investors that this wasn't due to mining and it was "gaming demand". So they are desperately trying to normalise mining pricing.

No amount of inflation jusifies going from normal 30% to 40% improvements under £400,to suddenly this costing £600.

Its nothing but an unofficial gentlemans agreement.

Plus with the PS5 Pro rumoured to be a 60CU part released next year - you now need to spend £600 to keep up with a console?

Are these greedy companies trying to end mainstream PC gaming? It seems they want to.
 
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I can't work out what your awnser is there CAT, you seem to be saying inflation doesn't exist?

Read what I said again. I answered your question in detail,and there is zero way to confuse anything.

Unless you think the RTX5070 and RX8800XT will cost £900 for being 40% faster than an RTX4070,and are made in Zimbabwe.
 
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Read what I said again. I answered your question in detail.

Ok, i'm going to assume that because inflation in China was under 1%, (since 2020 its actually 3%) but those are semantics, so i'm going to assume because there has been effectively no inflation in China they should be priced the same now as what they were before the pandemic? or even since 2016?

I do agree they are overpriced, but that wasn't my question.
 
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I personally have no issues with prices rising, I have a problem with the "value" of the card seeming poorer with each series recently, particularly on the Nvidia side.

While they've outpaced inflation, they've dropped the ball on value imho.
 
The inflation meme for dGPUs is more fake news spread on social media by their PR to jack up prices. Why not use Zimbabwe and Turkey inflation rates? Then a £2000 RTX4070 would look great value.

There was fake news spread just before Kepler was released of how "expensive" 28NM was,etc and people kept repeating it when they priced the Titan at £1000. It did cost more but not to the level they were spinning.

Plenty of small and medium businesses in the UK are cutting margins,despite rising energy costs and interest rates in Europe so they have no entitlement to expect us to increase their margins. So why do these tech companies get a freebie? They don't especially as they get lots of tax breaks and money thrown at them by the US taxpayer like the CHIPs act. In 2018 Nvidia paid no Federal taxes. Let the US taxpayer prop them up - if Nvidia and AMD want us to prop them up build your stuff in Europe then and give us tax revenue. There is more chance of Intel doing than either Nvidia or AMD.

Plus the RTX3000 and RX6000 series were introduced 9~18 months into a Global Pandemic. China/Taiwan were locked down,global shipping costs were high,GDDR6 prices were high,labour disruptions. The RRPs reflected that as was the streetprice.

Remember this pricing was from last year,long before the recent AI hype.

If there was no Pandemic the RX6700XT would be priced at under £400. Why did you think Nvidia introduced the RTX3060 12GB,RTX3070TI and RTX3080TI? They realised they missed out on a payday so wanted to reset pricing. AMD launched later so the RX6600XT/RX6700XT had this baked in.

Plus lets look at the other factors:
1.)They are made in China and Taiwan.Chinese inflation is under 1% and Taiwanese inflation is under 2% so is not important.

2.)Chinese and Taiwanese energy costs are not affected by the problems in Europe.

3.)No more lockdowns,so free movement of labour.

4.)Global shipping companies are charging much less. Their profits have collapsed.

5.)GDDR6 pricing has collapsed.

6.)Components are much easier to get now.

So any increases in TSMC costs are more then compensated for by all the other costs dropping.

What these companies have done is overproduce dGPUs for miners and gamers willing to pay above RRP. This happened in 2017/2018 and why Turing was a ripoff.

They overproduced billions of USD of dGPUs,and greedily expected mining prices for the next few years. Now that mining has collapsed they need to spin to investors that this wasn't due to mining and it was "gaming demand". So they are desperately trying to normalise mining pricing.

No amount of inflation jusifies going from normal 30% to 40% improvements under £400,to suddenly this costing £600.

Its nothing but an unofficial gentlemans agreement.

Plus with the PS5 Pro rumoured to be a 60CU part released next year - you now need to spend £600 to keep up with a console?

Are these greedy companies trying to end mainstream PC gaming? It seems they want to.
Ok, so i'm going to assume that because inflation in China was under 1%, (since 2020 its actually 3%) but those are semantics, so i'm going to assume because there has been effectively no inflation in china they should be priced the same now as what they were before the pandemic? or even since 2016?

I do agree they are overpriced, but that wasn't my question.

Below 1% this year:

I answered your question. So you now agree with me the increase in price has zero to do with manufacturing costs or shipping costs,because you implied that was the reason. They are made in China and Taiwan so US/UK inflation and energy costs has no effect. Funny how NAND and DRAM have deflation in prices. Weird!

So basically you are saying most of the cost increase is because AMD and Nvidia are deciding to overcharge us,because of gamers and others who justify it. If they are struggling,as they are US companies they can ask the US government for some extra money.

The CHIPS Act is over $250 billion in value - plenty of funds to help out:

Glad to have cleared that up.

:)

While they've outpaced inflation, they've dropped the ball on value imho.

UK inflation. Remember lots of PCMR enthusiasts use our high inflation to explain away charging 60% more for an RTX4060TI(which the RTX4070 really is with its small die) as due to inflation. Its a bit lazy because inflation rates are different in different parts of the world. Same as energy costs and labour costs.

Europe has high inflation due to massive increases in energy,fertiliser and food prices(due to the war) and huge amounts of money printing to help out households:

If you include the UK that is nearly a trillion Euro since last year just to subsidise energy bills. So anything made in Europe like food is going up.

Yet dGPUs are made in China,etc where inflation,energy costs,etc are much lower. Things like NAND,DRAM,etc have crashed in price. CPUs have not shown the same massive stealth price increases. So many other consumer products are not showing the same "inflation" using the same fabs.

Only dGPUs. So what do people think they are doing? They are not dropping the ball.

They are cynically agreeing with each other to keep prices higher. Its the simplest reason. AI is now the next mining craze.

Nvidia or AMD only care about their shareholders,so will entirely try and rip you off if they can.
 
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I personally have no issues with prices rising, I have a problem with the "value" of the card seeming poorer with each series recently, particularly on the Nvidia side.

While they've outpaced inflation, they've dropped the ball on value imho.

7900XT (rebranded from what should have been the 7800XT) $900, far too much. Its now $750, that's much more reasonable

7900XTX $1000, its expensive, because that is a lot of money for a GPU, but its the same price as the 6900XT its replaced, and 47% faster. No real issue with that.

7600, the card its replaced was $330, its 27% faster and $270, again, no issue with that.

4090, $100 more than the card its replaced, its what 60% faster, at $1500 the 3090 was over priced to start with but... no real issue with the 4090.

The 3080 was $700, the 4080 is $1200 for about 40% more performance, that is absolutely disgusting.
4070Ti, $900, disgusting.
4070, $600, not all that bad.
4060Ti, $400, but its objectivity a bad GPU, its no better than the 3060Ti its replaced, or for $500 you can have the same pile of junk with 16GB.
4060, $300, meh.
 
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Below 1% this year:

I answered your question. So you now agree with me the increase in price has zero to do with manufacturing costs or shipping costs,because you implied that was the reason. They are made in China and Taiwan so US/UK inflation and energy costs has no effect. Funny how NAND and DRAM have deflation in prices. Weird!

So basically you are saying most of the cost increase is because AMD and Nvidia are deciding to overcharge us,because of gamers and others who justify it. If they are struggling,as they are US companies they can ask the US government for some extra money.

The CHIPS Act is over $250 billion in value - plenty of funds to help out:

Glad to have cleared that up.

:)

There is such a thing as materials costs, engineering costs, packing costs, shipping costs, most of these people work in the US and are paid in USD.
 
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though i dont track currencies but i would be inclined to assume that lower inflation in China would have actually made the dollar relatively weaker, it all gets factored in local prices, maybe after a lag in any case
and anyways jensen was hinting at the technology capex becoming more expensive and TSMC just passing down the high equipment and material costs to their clients.
however, again nvidia is in a position to command a premium, how outsized it could be is going to be tested in the coming generation
meanwhile i have also come across rumors suggesting that nobody is too keen on picking the tab for TSMC 3nm, so maybe next gen is not going to be a big step up in performance, who knows lets see
 
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The cost of materials is also more expensive, TSMC pushed their prices up a lot, and brought them back down again but they are still higher.
Everyone is trying to ramp up for higher demands for these sort of components because more and more people are using them.
Pay is getting higher.
Fuel is more expensive and more goods are transported so shipping costs go up.
I have no doubt there is more.

On the one hand yes these things are getting too expensive due to greed, on the other hand i don't think expecting these things to be the same price generation after generation is reasonable either, There is a more grown up conversation to be had about it than that, these debates often feel like those idiotic Youtube thumbnails.
 
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What AMD did wrong was still price them too high. If AMD had current prices on release I suspects people would still moan and wait for their Nvidia GPU prices to drop. That kind of thing is not mindshare, it’s almost like a cult.

AMD basically got greedy and massively overestimated their mindshare at launch.
No I think they would have done quite well had they come out with the current prices at launch but instead they went with daft pricing and upset a lot of potential customers who had already boycotted Nvidia, then made them wait another 9 months before prices became reasonable so I wouldn't blame anyone who wanted one of these cards at launch before prices were announced now deciding not to bother as we are nearly half way through the cycle.
 
The cost of materials is also more expensive, TSMC pushed their prices up a lot, and brought them back down again but they are still higher.
Everyone is trying to ramp up for higher demands for these sort of components because more and more people are using them.
Pay is getting higher.
Fuel is more expensive and more goods are transported so shipping costs go up.
I have no doubt there is more.

On the one hand yes these things are getting too expensive due to greed, on the other hand i don't think expecting these things to be the same price generation after generation is reasonable either, There is a more grown up conversation to be had about it than that, these debates often feel like those idiotic Youtube thumbnails.
2020 VRAM = $13 per gigabyte
2023 VRAM = $3 per gigabyte.

That cost difference alone pays for a new 5nm chip plus change.
 
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