Pro Cycling Thread 2023

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I know I've only been watching a few years, so there will still be things I don't get, but I don't see why Jonas and Roglic shouldn't be allowed to try and win, as long as it couldn't blow up in their faces and the leave empty handed, which clearly is very unlikely. Whilst they are on the same team, technically it's not a team sport, if you know what I mean? It is still individuals that win things.
 
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I know I've only been watching a few years, so there will still be things I don't get, but I don't see why Jonas and Roglic shouldn't be allowed to try and win, as long as it couldn't blow up in their faces and the leave empty handed, which clearly is very unlikely. Whilst they are on the same team, technically it's not a team sport, if you know what I mean? It is still individuals that win things.

I've been watching even less and I don't see why they should deliberately hold back. I appreciate the sense of gratitude they should have for Kuss being a loyal domestique but then isn't that literally what he was employed to do? If he can't defend the GC win from Jonas or Primoz then does he really deserve to win the GC.
 
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I know I've only been watching a few years, so there will still be things I don't get, but I don't see why Jonas and Roglic shouldn't be allowed to try and win, as long as it couldn't blow up in their faces and the leave empty handed, which clearly is very unlikely. Whilst they are on the same team, technically it's not a team sport, if you know what I mean? It is still individuals that win things.

Well they are the leaders and they are there to win it. That said, when someone that has loyally been dragging you up mountains day after day, grand tour after grand tour and they get the rare chance to win something themselves, I think it would be an incredible gesture to let the guy thats been working for you to have their rare day in the sun. Perhaps Im old fashioned like that. As to it not technically being a team sport, it totally is a team sport, no one wins a grand tour without help, they arent a team of individuals all out to win something themselves. They win as a team and the traditional sharing of the GC winners prize money is a reflection of that.

Of course if Kuss has a stinker of a day and gets dropped no one expects Jonas or Rog to hang about
 
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Soldato
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As to it not technically being a team sport, it totally is a team sport, no one wins a grand tour without help, they arent a team of individuals all out to win something themselves. They win as a team and the traditional sharing of the GC winners prize money is a reflection of that.
Yes, I think I agree with all of that, I still say 'technically' it's not a team sport. If it was, why does it matter if Jonas wins, or Kuss? It would be Jumbo winning, not the individual. The sharing of prize money is done by the individual I expect, or does each rider literally get paid an equal share by the UCI?

An example, football or rugby are team sports. The team gets a win or a loss and moves up and down tables as a team. Whilst you might reference how many titles a player wins, it's as part of a team, the team wins the title, not the player. These guys are shown as individuals on the GC.

Again, I completely agree they will win and lose as a team and how well they work as a team, but 'technically' it's not a team sport. Mind you, I know the announce a winning team, but it's hardly ever talked about.
 
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Yes, I think I agree with all of that, I still say 'technically' it's not a team sport. If it was, why does it matter if Jonas wins, or Kuss? It would be Jumbo winning, not the individual. The sharing of prize money is done by the individual I expect, or does each rider literally get paid an equal share by the UCI?

An example, football or rugby are team sports. The team gets a win or a loss and moves up and down tables as a team. Whilst you might reference how many titles a player wins, it's as part of a team, the team wins the title, not the player. These guys are shown as individuals on the GC.

Again, I completely agree they will win and lose as a team and how well they work as a team, but 'technically' it's not a team sport. Mind you, I know the announce a winning team, but it's hardly ever talked about.

I see what you mean and yes you are right as only one person can stand on the podium, even if it requires a team to win.

Traditionally the GC winner say wins the TdF and wins €500k, they can keep the prize money as they won it but they normally share it out to the whole team, not just the riders but everyone
 
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I feel I’m at an odds with everyone on Eurosport.

I appreciate the sentimental value of it but it’s not as deep as they’re all making it out to be. He’s employed to be a domestique. It’s his literal job.

I know it’s not the same as it’s a year long championship vs a grand tour but imagine if Max Verstappen decided to not race as fast as he can but instead help his teammate win. It would just leave a bad taste in my mouth.

On Eurosport they’re acting like Kuss is there through the goodness of his heart and doing it for free.
 
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I feel I’m at an odds with everyone on Eurosport.

I appreciate the sentimental value of it but it’s not as deep as they’re all making it out to be. He’s employed to be a domestique. It’s his literal job.

On Eurosport they’re acting like Kuss is there through the goodness of his heart and doing it for free.

Of course it is very deep/significant, how often does a domestique have a genuine chance to win a grand tour? He has already helped the both of them win a grand tour each this year, he’s done his job. He’s in the red jersey off his own back because of the breakaway and is one of the leaders because of it.

The commentators know Kuss is a loyal super domestique who is the last man to guide the leader up the mountain and it is his job to do so and yes that is what he is paid for but thats what would make it such a fantastic gesture to let Kuss have the win if he’s up to it, to thank him for all his hard work for them, let him have his day in the sun. If he’s not up to it then of course ride for the win
 
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It's a fascinating dynamic all round. Teammates attacking their teammate in the leader's jersey basically doesn't happen (or causes a ****storm, see Froome v Wiggo). That said, Kuss is basically in red by accident. Vingegaard and Roglic are proven commodities whereas Kuss isn't. If they stick with him and he blows up it's hugely embarrassing if someone else takes the race lead. If they go up the road when Kuss isn't on a particularly bad day and take time they look like total dicks. We'll never really know what happened on the Angliru. If you're being charitable I guess you say Jumbo Visma consolidated the podium whilst keeping Kuss in red.
 
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I just feel as a spectator if there’s no risk in the final stages why bother watching.

I get why they’re doing it but I don’t agree. That’s my opinion as someone who’s watched bicycle racing for the grand total of 6 months.
 
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I just feel as a spectator if there’s no risk in the final stages why bother watching.

I get why they’re doing it but I don’t agree. That’s my opinion as someone who’s watched bicycle racing for the grand total of 6 months.

Maybe you should look up some of the unwritten rules of cycling, it will probably make your head spin :cry: One is that you don’t attack the the yellow etc. jersey if they crash or have a mechanical or take a pee.
 
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I just feel as a spectator if there’s no risk in the final stages why bother watching.

I get why they’re doing it but I don’t agree. That’s my opinion as someone who’s watched bicycle racing for the grand total of 6 months.
That’s the weird thing about cycling, it’s an individual sport where you can only win as a team. Look at Pogacar in the 2022 Tour where he got completely worked over by Jumbo Visma when he was isolated.

Supporting Kuss in these final stages is the right thing to do now in recognition of the work he did for Roglic and Vingegaard not just this year but in previous years. He also deserves a lot of credit for seizing his chance to take red earlier in the race and then consolidating in the TT when people expected him to lose minutes. He’s shown he has the legs to win the race and Jumbo will come away with red, a sweep of the podium (probably) and 3 different GT winners in a single season. It’s nuts.

It would be a different race though if Evenepoel hadn’t lost 30 mins on the Tourmalet.
 
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Maybe you should look up some of the unwritten rules of cycling, it will probably make your head spin :cry: One is that you don’t attack the the yellow etc. jersey if they crash or have a mechanical or take a pee.

It baffled me a few years ago (in my mind this is a few but it's over a decade ago!!) when Wiggins won the TDF I was confused why everyone was taking pictures and drinking wine the last day! Though I don't get the whole respect the jersey thing, especially in the instance of having a mechanical.

In my mind that would be like a race director throwing a red flag in F1 because the leader had an accident. Mind boggling but tradition is going to tradition!
 
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Surely it's no different than when someone is 'hurt' and down on a football pitch. From what you're saying the opponent should try and take advantage and score while the team is a man down? Sportsmanship means they kick it out. I'm fine with both that and waiting for the Yellow jersey.
 
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Surely it's no different than when someone is 'hurt' and down on a football pitch. From what you're saying the opponent should try and take advantage and score while the team is a man down? Sportsmanship means they kick it out. I'm fine with both that and waiting for the Yellow jersey.

Not really, no. That's not equal in my mind. Football is a team sport on a confined pitch. Unless you're down a player through your own actions such as a red card, I agree with the sportsmanship of kicking the ball out of play so the player can get treatment. I understand cycling is a team sport, similar to how F1 is a team sport but it feels team in name only. When I search "who won the 2023 Giro/Tour" I do not see Jumbo Visma, the focus is on the individual.

So if the sport you're playing comes down to a situation where you are 1 on 1 with an opponent them having an injury or mechanical issue is all part of the game. If someone wants to show sportsmanship that should be commended but it shouldn't be expected or criticised when they don't. Don't get me wrong, seeing Jonas wait for Pog that time he slipped over even though Jonas was in yellow, super cool to see but in my eyes that is purely an exception to the rule. They're professionals and part of the parcel of being a professional sports person is your ruthless determination and will to succeed.

For me I suppose I view it like boxing. If your opponent gets injured during the fight that isn't your concern, problem or fault. Your job is to be there to win, so win. An example being Bellew vs Haye. At that point Haye was a washed shadow of his former self and busts his Achilles in the fight. Sure it would've been good sportsmanship to waive the fight off but it would also be nonsensical. The same way it would be nonsense if this weekend because Max is leading the championship if he was a issue at Singapore other drivers aren't supposed to attack him?

I understand nullifying a race if half of the peloton are involved in a crash but taking the ability to compete with a leader because they're the leader just doesn't make sense in my mind but it is the way it is.
 
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it feels team in name only.
This comes back to our discussion from a few days ago. I would go the other way, which was why I was using ' when saying 'technically' it's an individual sport, because really it's very much based on teams, so yes, 'technically' Sepp will win, but everyone talks about 'Jumbo domination' and as mentioned above I think, why Pogacar couldn't win the 2022 TdF.

seeing Jonas wait for Pog that time he slipped over even though Jonas was in yellow, super cool to see but in my eyes that is purely an exception to the rule.
To me, this made sense for Jonas. Tbh, I don't remember the entire details, but I remember thinking it was in hs favour for them to keep riding together rather than him push on alone.

For me I suppose I view it like boxing. If your opponent gets injured during the fight that isn't your concern, problem or fault. Your job is to be there to win, so win.
I think that's very different. Surely, injuring your opponent is kinda the point? "Oh no, I hit him so hard he's unconsious' is a little different to 'oh, this guys chain snapped'.

We might have to just agree to disagree. Taking advantage of someone's bad luck just seems poor form to me.
 
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This comes back to our discussion from a few days ago. I would go the other way, which was why I was using ' when saying 'technically' it's an individual sport, because really it's very much based on teams, so yes, 'technically' Sepp will win, but everyone talks about 'Jumbo domination' and as mentioned above I think, why Pogacar couldn't win the 2022 TdF.
I get that to succeed you need a team but I just don't see it as a team sport in the sense I see that Football/rugby etc are team sports. Obviously my feelings are flawed but it's just how I see it.

I think that's very different. Surely, injuring your opponent is kinda the point? "Oh no, I hit him so hard he's unconsious' is a little different to 'oh, this guys chain snapped'.
The objective is to either win on points via point scoring shots to the body and head. Of course the ultimate goal is to render your opponent unconscious for 8 seconds but only via point scoring shots. Anything bellow the navel is not a scoring shot so by and large you're not focussing on someone's waistline and bellow.

If someone has injured their ankle/knee and unable to move do you think a fight should be stopped? If someone in F1 has a tyre blow out or failure of some kind, should a race be stopped?

We might have to just agree to disagree. Taking advantage of someone's bad luck just seems poor form to me.

But luck is part of sports. It's what makes sport so fascinating because you have the ability to make your own luck but often surprising things can happen agaisnt the run of play and change the course of history. When someone has good luck it is often at the detriment to someone else. Eliminating luck out of sport would be sterilising it to the point of not making it interesting to watch. I know you follow Fomula1. Is Max's first championship in poor form because he took advantage of a screw up by the race director? Was Hamilton stealing the race win in Russia 2021 bad form because Norris was 'unlucky' that McLaren kept him out on dry/inter tyres when it was clearly too wet? Are Man City undeserving 2014 Premier League champions because Liverpool were unlucky that Gerrard tripped up after giving 'that' speech?

Taking advantage of someone else's mistakes/bad luck in sports is not poor form at all. It's just how the cards fall on that day, some days lady luck shines on you and sometimes she doesn't. For me, taking advantage of someone's luck in competition is just capitalising on the moment. The only time I disagree with what I've said would be if the person benefitting from the luck also caused the opponents bad luck. If we are playing football and I tackle you which then leads to an injury and your side being a man down? Kick the ball out of play. If we are just running side-by-side and you trip over yourself with zero interaction with myself, that is just unlucky and I don't see why I should immediately stop play. Similar to athletics. Imagine the 100m final. Someone trips up are all the other sprinters supposed to stop?

The more I think about it the more absurd it is :cry: I enjoy the show but it's jus bat guano crazy to me with some of the traditions.
 
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Soldato
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I get that to succeed you need a team but I just don't see it as a team sport in the sense I see that Football/rugby etc are team sports. Obviously my feelings are flawed but it's just how I see it.
I wouldn't say they are flawed, just that it's not a simple thing. It's not really a black and white thing, there are shades of grey. A bit like F1, but I would say pro cycling is much more team based.
The objective is to either win on points via point scoring shots to the body and head. Of course the ultimate goal is to render your opponent unconscious for 8 seconds but only via point scoring shots. Anything bellow the navel is not a scoring shot so by and large you're not focussing on someone's waistline and bellow.

If someone has injured their ankle/knee and unable to move do you think a fight should be stopped? If someone in F1 has a tyre blow out or failure of some kind, should a race be stopped?
Again, clearly we just see things very differently. Boxing is about resilience to injury/harm and as such is a really bad example. F1 again is just a bad comparative due to how the sport is done. I don't think there are any options. I would stick with my 'the footballer is injured' comparison myself. Something can be done and something is done.

Also, if the yellow jersey has a mechanical, it's not like everyone stops and waits with him, they just don't try and take advantage of it. That seems reasonable to me.
But luck is part of sports.
I'm sorry, as I say, I think you just have a VERY different view than me, which of course is fine.

Would I rather see the best person win or the second best person win because they got some luck. I can't believe I would even need to answer that?!

When people talk about making your own luck, it's usually not really luck. Like your Norris example. To me that's a bad call, not luck. You even say it was clearly too wet. How is that luck?

Max winning wasn't lucky, IMO of course, it was simply wrong. It was an incorrect interpretation of the rules which led to an unfair position, which again... why would I want to see that over the two best going head to head in a fair manner? I'm honestly confused how you can be happy with the alternative?

Again, mistakes and luck are different things.

You tripping over your own feet in a 100m final isn't luck, another bad example. A bear or ostrich running onto the track and knocking someone over is luck and honestly, yes, I would rather they ran the race again. (Okay, maybe it's a fan throwing a seat cushion and hitting one of the athletes, rather than a bear, but you hopefully get the idea)

As I say, we just have different viewpoints, which is fine.
 
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Just as a further thought, it is mainly just the peloton and then when they're just cruising along, it's almost not really racing at this point.

What was the race recently, I think it was the Tour, some guy in the breakaway snapped his chain. They gave him 2 or 3 bikes (default shimano, not his team) and none were right. The breakaway didn't wait for him. Tough. They were gone and it cost him his chance for a win. Again, I'm fine with this. P00p happens, but again, the peloton that aren't even really racing.... I see as different (and again, they aren't stopping and waiting, they just aren't trying to take advantage)
 
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Again, clearly we just see things very differently. Boxing is about resilience to injury/harm and as such is a really bad example. F1 again is just a bad comparative due to how the sport is done. I don't think there are any options. I would stick with my 'the footballer is injured' comparison myself. Something can be done and something is done.

I disagree. I'm speaking of a situation where someone is injured in a location which has nothing to do with the fight. If you twist your ankle, that has nothing to do with your resilience to injury or harm as the ankle isn't a monitored part of the body within boxing. Of course you can then argue that if you've twisted your ankle you're not in a position to be able to throw effective shots or defend yourself from your opponent as well as you would with full mobility. I suppose I could accept the scenario where a fighter gets a really deep cut from an illegal, blow like an elbow, that the fight is stopped and ruled a no contest.

Either way, in the instance that a footballer is injured; My view is that if the team caused the player to have an injury they should be expected to kick the ball out immediately. I do not believe that if a player gets a freak injury by themselves that the other team are obligated to kick the ball out for sportsmanship reasons. What's to stop 'Player A' from successfully dribbling a ball past 'Player B' and then 'Player B' feigns an injury/cramp to stop the opposing teams progress? As we know, all of the players are truthful...

sergio.jpg


Also, if the yellow jersey has a mechanical, it's not like everyone stops and waits with him, they just don't try and take advantage of it. That seems reasonable to me.
How are you not supposed to take advantage if you don't stop? If we are making progress together and you stop even if I reduce my speed to 10% of what we were doing together, I'm still making progress which you can't and by the very definition I'm gaining an advantage. Now, I could just pedal really slowly for ages but ultimately you're still going to need to burn some energy to catch up to where I've made it, depending how bad your mechanical issue is.

It just doesn't sit right with me. I just can't grasp the idea of accepting that someone can train as hard as they can and put all the hours into achieving something they've dreamed about for years, they've reached the top of their craft and are within distance of achieving their goals. They've nailed the preparation and have put in all the hard work. They've surrounded themselves with a team who also put in lots of hard work and trying to be the best at what they do. You have your mechanics which you trust to have built your bike to the best of their ability. You're out there riding for yourself and both the team on the track as well as the team off it.

Then because your opponents chain breaks, lets say their mechanics didn't put in as much work or care as yours, you then have to think "to hell with all the work my team did, that guy bad a bit of bad luck". I'd understand if it was a team mate but an opponent?

Would I rather see the best person win or the second best person win because they got some luck. I can't believe I would even need to answer that?!
We'll were all about to witness Kuss win it and I'd argue he's not the best person in his team let alone the whole competition. Though I love upsets in sport and I am aware that for underdogs to win they need luck sometimes.

When people talk about making your own luck, it's usually not really luck. Like your Norris example. To me that's a bad call, not luck. You even say it was clearly too wet. How is that luck?
"The harder I work the luckier I am". The hard work you do puts you in a position to capitalise on moments were luck presents itself. I keep going back to the chain scenario but if we are 1st/2nd in a race and your chain snaps that in no way at all diminishes the work which was required to be in the position to make the most of the situation.

It can be both a bad call and bad luck at the same time. It was a bad call because, if I remember correctly, everyone pit behind and were making up time. It was unlucky because the rain came heavy in the penultimate lap. In a similar vein, I think it was the same year maybe not. Though there was a weekend where Mercedes were really off the pace during P1/P2/P3. Lewis said something about their only chance being if it rains, which it did and he had a good result.
Max winning wasn't lucky, IMO of course, it was simply wrong. It was an incorrect interpretation of the rules which led to an unfair position, which again... why would I want to see that over the two best going head to head in a fair manner? I'm honestly confused how you can be happy with the alternative?
Because in the eyes of the FIA everything was fine. Which is lucky for Max and unlucky for Lewis

Again, mistakes and luck are different things.

You tripping over your own feet in a 100m final isn't luck, another bad example. A bear or ostrich running onto the track and knocking someone over is luck and honestly, yes, I would rather they ran the race again. (Okay, maybe it's a fan throwing a seat cushion and hitting one of the athletes, rather than a bear, but you hopefully get the idea)
Of course it's luck? If you've ran thousands of 100m's before without ever tripping and you trip the one time that counts, how is that not bad luck? The spikes in the shoes may have been faulty which may have caused you to slip and trip. That would be unlucky for you but the IAAF are hardly going to make everyone run the race again because of one runners misfortune.

Sports and luck go hand in hand in my eyes. Sometimes a team can have 95% possession with 20 shots on target and none go in when the opposing side can have 20 total shots with only 1 being on target and score the match winner. Of course, an argument could then be "well they had the better keeper/strikers" but most would say the team who played better got unlucky and came up short. It just wasn't their day.

As I say, we just have different viewpoints, which is fine.
Of course, and I love seeing how other people view sports. I'm not saying how either of us view sports is right or wrong I just find it interesting how we can have such different view points.

Anyway, we're just going in circles at this point :p After this, is there nothing much until the Spring?
 
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