EV general discussion

You don’t need reception or 4G connection for contactless payment. Where app controlled you need that.

The number times I have been to basement of a car park to find chargers only work off app and have to go between ground floor and basement to activate the charge is just retarded in planning. At least put a wifi hot spot close by or something.
 
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Europe have got this right. A single RFID card and it's all interoperable everywhere, roaming agreements between all the operators/providers and a single card or app works at most sites.

UK is backwards in that respect and we are suffering for it. Contactless is fine for rapids but as @b0rn2sk8 says the costs are way too much to put on every AC charging post, whether you like it or not.
 
How much did the tax-payer subsidise the Birmigham centre - last laugh ?
Not sure if it's mandated too but the Paris street chargers have credit card capability although you pay a premium, as you might have to in the UK (vs app)

What is this vitriol? It’s an NEC car park by BP installed and ran by a third party.

Yes the EU mandate was ahead of the Uk one.

Apps are fine, much easier to get a recipt later. I think it’s people who are learning to tie shoe laces who actually have a view either way. I couldn’t care less, RFID I like the fact you don’t need a signal, it’s generally the quickest start to a charger and you get points.

So much absolute horse poop from people talking the talk rather than walking it. Looking right at you jpaul, the Pope of Conjecture.
 
I honestly didn't think it was that big of a deal to have contactless payment these days? Just a couple of months ago I was using contactless to pay for kiddy rides at £1 a pop down the seafront. Literally every games machine / ride had its own contactless thingy so surely it can't be that hard to implement? Or do things get exponentially more costly once you move away from fixed price, in which case have the user select the number of hours and have it as a pre determined cost
 
I honestly didn't think it was that big of a deal to have contactless payment these days? Just a couple of months ago I was using contactless to pay for kiddy rides at £1 a pop down the seafront. Literally every games machine / ride had its own contactless thingy so surely it can't be that hard to implement? Or do things get exponentially more costly once you move away from fixed price, in which case have the user select the number of hours and have it as a pre determined cost
I think you missed the point, it adds a material amount of cost and overhead. Volume matters, particularly where the thing you are charging for is cheap and AC charging is (or should be) a low margin business. That's before considering the much more expensive hardware needed compared to a charger controlled remotely which is almost identical to the one you have on the wall of your house.

Adding contactless payments have a minimum fixed cost per day/week/year plus the usual small % cut taken by the operator, its the former which is important here for a low volume business. So if they only process 1-2 transactions per day that fixed is soaked up by those 1-2 customers. If that machine takes 50 payments a day, that cost is split between 50 customers.

If it costs £1/day (£30/month) just to have the machine switched on, which is a realistic cost which is charged by payment companies to have an active terminal, in the first example, each customer needs to pay 50p. In the second example each customer only needs to pay 1p. The first example is an AC charger, the second example is an arcade machine. My local council will take a contactless payment on a £1 parking charge but the machine serves 100+ people a day, the cost of having a contactless payment option for each customer is 1p.

The thing to consider with arcade machines is that the easier you make it, the more people are likely to spend given its almost entirely impulse driven and the marginal cost of adding a new customer is basically zero. So taking a slightly lower margin could mean you make more money over all and get a better return on your investment. That doesn't really apply to charging which tends to be a distressed purchase (e.g. you buy it because you need it there and then) with low margins and a high marginal cost of adding a new customer.

The summary was that adding contactless payments to slow AC chargers which only see single digit transactions per day will add cost, if you are happy to pay it then fine. But in reality if you ask most people if they would prefer contactless payment and pay 5p/kwh more or save 5p/kwh and pay by an app, most will choose the app. In theory, public will eventually get competitive where there are multiple options to charge and people will naturally gravitate to cheaper chargers.

For another example, just look at the impact the 5p carrier bag charge had literally over night. Buying 5p bags added a negligible amount of money to your weekly supermarket shop but it was more than enough to nearly eliminate carrier bag use overnight.
 
I think you missed the point, it adds a material amount of cost and overhead. Volume matters, particularly where the thing you are charging for is cheap and AC charging is (or should be) a low margin business. That's before considering the much more expensive hardware needed compared to a charger controlled remotely which is almost identical to the one you have on the wall of your house.

Adding contactless payments have a minimum fixed cost per day/week/year plus the usual small % cut taken by the operator, its the former which is important here for a low volume business. So if they only process 1-2 transactions per day that fixed is soaked up by those 1-2 customers. If that machine takes 50 payments a day, that cost is split between 50 customers.

If it costs £1/day (£30/month) just to have the machine switched on, which is a realistic cost which is charged by payment companies to have an active terminal, in the first example, each customer needs to pay 50p. In the second example each customer only needs to pay 1p. The first example is an AC charger, the second example is an arcade machine. My local council will take a contactless payment on a £1 parking charge but the machine serves 100+ people a day, the cost of having a contactless payment option for each customer is 1p.

The thing to consider with arcade machines is that the easier you make it, the more people are likely to spend given its almost entirely impulse driven and the marginal cost of adding a new customer is basically zero. So taking a slightly lower margin could mean you make more money over all and get a better return on your investment. That doesn't really apply to charging which tends to be a distressed purchase (e.g. you buy it because you need it there and then) with low margins and a high marginal cost of adding a new customer.

The summary was that adding contactless payments to slow AC chargers which only see single digit transactions per day will add cost, if you are happy to pay it then fine. But in reality if you ask most people if they would prefer contactless payment and pay 5p/kwh more or save 5p/kwh and pay by an app, most will choose the app. In theory, public will eventually get competitive where there are multiple options to charge and people will naturally gravitate to cheaper chargers.

For another example, just look at the impact the 5p carrier bag charge had literally over night. Buying 5p bags added a negligible amount of money to your weekly supermarket shop but it was more than enough to nearly eliminate carrier bag use overnight.
I got the point you were making and it is a very valid one. I just thought that options without monthly fees and per use rates of just over 1% + <10p transaction fee were common place now.

It would probably add £200 - 300 on the initial install cost though admittedly but you are already looking at £1k + for a charger plus commissioning so it isn't a huge leap.

This isn't my area of expertise though so I could be missing something very obvious!
 
There are subscription free options but they are only available to the smallest of the small and the transaction fees are very high circa 1.75%. They wouldn’t also integrate with any other system, it’s just basic way of taking money.

If you want a fully integrated payment system, you have to pay. It’s not just the processing of the payment you are paying for, it’s licensing of the software integration and support.

I’d suggest increasing your hardware costs by 20-30% plus all the overhead is pretty significant IMO. You’d also hope they are not just installing one.

This is just the beginning, there are already >40,000 AC chargers deployed in the U.K. Even if you are being prudent and it only costs £20/month per unit, that’s £800k/month, someone has got to pay for that and it’s not going to be the shareholders of the charging companies.

Eventually we are probably going to need a few million of these installed. You can see how those costs are going to scale. You can see why the charging companies are trying to avoid it and use lower cost methods if possible.

It’s not significant when you are installing a rapid charger that costs £100k.
 
What is this vitriol? It’s an NEC car park by BP installed and ran by a third party.
Do you know categorically that there is no subsidy provided by the govt for, such a public charger install ? - minister apparently opened it.
Much that the majority dislike Europe they have prior art on charger deployment & payment strategy.
 
Do you know categorically that there is no subsidy provided by the govt for, such a public charger install ? - minister apparently opened it.
Much that the majority dislike Europe they have prior art on charger deployment & payment strategy.
The government has a pot of funding to provide a subsidy for installing rapid chargers at key strategic locations such as motorway services.

Not a single penny of it has been spent yet. That’s how he knows that they didn’t get any subsidies.

I doubt this would have even met the criteria for government funding anyway. The site is literally located directly adjacent to a massive existing substation which is fed by a massive pylon. You couldn’t get easier access to power for a charging hub.

The site isn’t actually that big, 150 of the chargers are 7kw AC for NEC attendees. The 32 rapid bays are ‘300kw’ but they share power between 2 bays so really they are only 150kw per bay. Again nothing special.

The BP app lists 40 connectors but I’m pretty sure those 16 units can only serve 2 cars at once.

It’s all just marketing, this is not really the UKs biggest charging hub either. Exeter services has has 32 tesla 250kw units and 18 gridserve 350kw units and 6 50kw units which can deliver more power to more cars more quickly.
 
Do you know categorically that there is no subsidy provided by the govt for, such a public charger install ? - minister apparently opened it.
Much that the majority dislike Europe they have prior art on charger deployment & payment strategy.
TBH the onus of proof sits with you.
 
The government has a pot of funding to provide a subsidy for installing rapid chargers at key strategic locations such as motorway services.

Not a single penny of it has been spent yet. That’s how he knows that they didn’t get any subsidies.

I doubt this would have even met the criteria for government funding anyway. The site is literally located directly adjacent to a massive existing substation which is fed by a massive pylon. You couldn’t get easier access to power for a charging hub.

The site isn’t actually that big, 150 of the chargers are 7kw AC for NEC attendees. The 32 rapid bays are ‘300kw’ but they share power between 2 bays so really they are only 150kw per bay. Again nothing special.

The BP app lists 40 connectors but I’m pretty sure those 16 units can only serve 2 cars at once.

It’s all just marketing, this is not really the UKs biggest charging hub either. Exeter services has has 32 tesla 250kw units and 18 gridserve 350kw units and 6 50kw units which can deliver more power to more cars more quickly.

To be fair it was opened before the final exeter was complete and Exeter has 2 50kW at best, not 6 im sure. No doubt the 7kW units are what makes it a sizable hub anyway and the fact its usable by all EVs.

Atleast it has canopies and with 100kW of solar. I used it before it opened in August with 30 IPACES in total load testings the site pulling 2.72MW peak which was impressive, TV crew there for a Ch4 documentary too so will be interesting to see when that is aired.
bp_pulse_NEC_UFC.jpg


More of a hub than a motorway car park if you ask me.
 
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That must have been a fun day out. Roadtrip to Exeter anyone?
It was in work hours as part of our technical partnership with BP. Free charge and Starbucks opening was a training day for them so the real load test was the staff making drinks fast enough :cry:

Which part of 'before it opened' didnt you read?

They didnt have cups of sarcasm im afraid though so couldnt swallow that... rumour is non of us drove at 63mph on the M42 aswell!
 
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The government has a pot of funding to provide a subsidy for installing rapid chargers at key strategic locations such as motorway services.
can be birmingham council subsidy too, if not , just company tax allowance for that kind of kit ,
in the context of the original discussion - whether either would put an obligation on the financial profits they can make and the £/Kwh they charge.
('monopolies commission' obviously looked at the complicity between supermarkets for fuel pricing - ev charging could also come under that scrutiny)

e: we are getting some new kit lol
VATICAN CITY, Nov 15 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Wednesday signed an agreement with German carmaker Volkswagen to replace the city-state's entire car fleet with electric vehicles by 2030.
 
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Its the BP and NEC, they have tonnes of cash for real benefits for the typical users. Quit the hyperbole Pope conjecture.

The proximity to the substation at this site is borederline hilarious :D
 
@Jonnycoupe Fair comment, it was open before.

It was more pointing out that this kind of deployment of rapid chargers is something that’s been done before in the U.K. The only difference is the deployment of a large quantity of AC chargers but they are serving 2 very different kind of customers.

For example, Gridserve Braintree can supply more charging power and has more connectors. Norwich has 2 less connectors but can supply a lot more power.

In Exeter Gridserve says they have medium power 6 CCS and 2 chademo in so we are both wrong! That’s going to be spread over 4 60kw units with 8 connectors (max 30kw each).

That’s a lot of iPace in one place and looked like a fun day out. Do we need to look out for you when the show airs?
 
can be birmingham council subsidy too, if not , just company tax allowance for that kind of kit

Why would the council subsidise it? They are literally bankrupt. Citation needed.

The tax stuff applies to literally any company in the U.K. who make relevant plant and machinery expenditure.
 
@Jonnycoupe Fair comment, it was open before.

It was more pointing out that this kind of deployment of rapid chargers is something that’s been done before in the U.K. The only difference is the deployment of a large quantity of AC chargers but they are serving 2 very different kind of customers.

For example, Gridserve Braintree can supply more charging power and has more connectors. Norwich has 2 less connectors but can supply a lot more power.

In Exeter Gridserve says they have medium power 6 CCS and 2 chademo in so we are both wrong! That’s going to be spread over 4 60kw units with 8 connectors (max 30kw each).

That’s a lot of iPace in one place and looked like a fun day out. Do we need to look out for you when the show airs?

True enough guess landing 30 at once is pretty good progress rather than increments to existing sites. Regards Exeter I thought i remember 2 but seems indeed 3, that said theres no way in the world 6 car can hook up at the same time even if these are dual charge enabled.


Love the fact the granny is holding a granny charger, i wonder if shes called Zoe :cry:

Only drone shots and driving in etc, a couple spoke but not me. It was the day after we came back from Italy so i was welcome to a full charge :cry:
 
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