Is it me or are all the £1500 cars now £5k?

[b0rn2sk8]

You are very misinformed as the Puma was not more popular than the Fiesta but rather Ford due to chip shortages focused production on the Puma. The Ford Fiesta was the best selling car in the UK 2017,2018, 2019 and 2020. That market share doesn't disappear over night without outside influence.

The reasons for Ford dropping the Fiesta maybe true as there are bigger profit margins in these "SUV" type cars but it wasn't more popular.

You say I’m misinformed, the Puma was only relaunched right at the end of 2019 and didn’t turn up in the U.K. until 2020. I’m not sure how it was going to out sell an established model in full production in the years it wasn’t even on sale and its first partial year.

Sure they focused on the Puma when they were production limited for a short period as it’s a higher margin vehicle but that isn’t the whole story.

The Puma was always going to takeover from the Fiesta as Ford’s most popular vehicle because of the wider sales trend towards crossovers, it’s the whole reason it exists. Covid production issues accelerated it but it was always going to happen.

Ford’s strategy to shifting all their focus to SUVs and crossovers was devised and implemented long before covid was even a thing. If anything Ford is very late to the party. Vehicles like the Juke, Mokka etc. have been eating Ford’s lunch for years.

As I already said Ford does ‘okay’ in the U.K. but that isn’t the case in Europe just because something is popular in the U.K. it doesn’t mean it sells well across the European market. The fiesta’s popularity isn’t what it once was and they have been haemorrhaging sales year on year since 2009. They sold over 200k less Fiestas in 2019 compared to 2009. Sales effectively halved, that is some fall from grace.

The competition is fierce with fleets switching away from the Fiesta to other vehicles. Mainly crossovers like the few I have mentioned but also other hatches such as the newer (and better IMO) Corsa. There is a reason why most of the cars in the U.K. (and Europe) top 10 are now crossovers.

The Puma is Ford’s best selling vehicle in Europe by some margin now and it was always going to be the case given time.

Things are definitely dropping though, with the fear surrounding second hand EVs there are some bargains out there.

Yea but the fear is justified. If the batteries die you may as well scrap the car. It doesn't get any cheaper to replace them.

The irony is that it’s the cheaper end of the EV market that’s still holding up. You know the end of the market that’s either out of warranty or the 8 year warranty is about to end.

It’s almost like there is something else which is entirely responsible for this trend in the used car market. Perhaps it’s ludicrous finance costs which are not really a factor down at the bottom end where it’s almost entirely driven by outright purchases and where finance is used, it’s not such a material cost.

 

[jpaul]

Not sure some of the mid/low-market ev's eg poilestars £25K 2 years old will hold - the prospect of unknown insurance hikes over coming years is frightening,
(if you are used to £300nne£200 annual rates for petrol.)
need some ev's in lower insurance groups that have sensible repair costs to join market;
in conjunction with some security that your predominately chinese sourced ev will not suffer high depreciation over 2nd hand ownership, versus that vw/ford-puma.
with a proven legacy parts infrastructure (some made in china)

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Not sure some of the mid/low-market ev's eg poilestars £25K 2 years old will hold

Since when was a £50k Polestar that is now 2 years old polestar at the middle let alone the low end of the used market?

You do come out with some utter tripe sometimes.

The low end of the EV market is 7+ year old Leaf, Zoe, etc.

 

[adam cool dude]

You say I’m misinformed, the Puma was only relaunched right at the end of 2019 and didn’t turn up in the U.K. until 2020. I’m not sure how it was going to out sell an established model in full production in the years it wasn’t even on sale and its first partial year.

Sure they focused on the Puma when they were production limited for a short period as it’s a higher margin vehicle but that isn’t the whole story.

The Puma was always going to takeover from the Fiesta as Ford’s most popular vehicle because of the wider sales trend towards crossovers, it’s the whole reason it exists. Covid production issues accelerated it but it was always going to happen.

Ford’s strategy to shifting all their focus to SUVs and crossovers was devised and implemented long before covid was even a thing. If anything Ford is very late to the party. Vehicles like the Juke, Mokka etc. have been eating Ford’s lunch for years.

As I already said Ford does ‘okay’ in the U.K. but that isn’t the case in Europe just because something is popular in the U.K. it doesn’t mean it sells well across the European market. The fiesta’s popularity isn’t what it once was and they have been haemorrhaging sales year on year since 2009. They sold over 200k less Fiestas in 2019 compared to 2009. Sales effectively halved, that is some fall from grace.

The competition is fierce with fleets switching away from the Fiesta to other vehicles. Mainly crossovers like the few I have mentioned but also other hatches such as the newer (and better IMO) Corsa. There is a reason why most of the cars in the U.K. (and Europe) top 10 are now crossovers.

The Puma is Ford’s best selling vehicle in Europe by some margin now and it was always going to be the case given time.

The only reason the Puma is popular is because Ford discontinued the Fiesta. It is quite simple. The market was there for the Fiesta but like you said Ford made no money on it. Shock horror as cheap well put together car is popular.

You totally misunderstood my post about the Fiesta's popularity in the past years. The Fiesta was canned because it didn't make Ford money not because it wasn't popular as it clearly was in the UK. People have just been forced into the Puma because there is no Fiesta anymore. Typical manipulating markets. Only reason the Fiesta sold badly in 21 and 22 was because they just didn't make them because of the chip shortage instead focusing on the Puma. The Corsa outsold both as people switched over because they didn't want the Puma.

I think personally Ford has shot themselves massively in the foot because the Fiesta was more than just a car it was an entry point into Ford and would lead consumers into future purchases of Ford products which will likely not happen now as they will switch to other companies that offer small value hatchbacks.

In 2019 the Fiesta was only outsold by the Clio in Europe as far as small hatches go and 4th overall. Now the Puma is behind the Sandero, Corsa, 208 and Clio languishing in 16th place (2022 data). I rest my case.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

The only reason the Puma is popular is because Ford discontinued the Fiesta. It is quite simple. The market was there for the Fiesta but like you said Ford made no money on it. Shock horror as cheap well put together car is popular.

You totally misunderstood my post about the Fiesta's popularity in the past years. The Fiesta was canned because it didn't make Ford money not because it wasn't popular as it clearly was in the UK. People have just been forced into the Puma because there is no Fiesta anymore. Typical manipulating markets. Only reason the Fiesta sold badly in 21 and 22 was because they just didn't make them because of the chip shortage instead focusing on the Puma. The Corsa outsold both as people switched over because they didn't want the Puma.

I think personally Ford has shot themselves massively in the foot because the Fiesta was more than just a car it was an entry point into Ford and would lead consumers into future purchases of Ford products which will likely not happen now as they will switch to other companies that offer small value hatchbacks.

In 2019 the Fiesta was only outsold by the Clio in Europe as far as small hatches go and 4th overall. Now the Puma is behind the Sandero, Corsa, 208 and Clio languishing in 16th place (2022 data). I rest my case.

No it’s not, it’s really not. In reality the specific evidence for the Puma vs the Fiesta isn’t really directly comparable as neither car has been on sale for any comparable period without being impacted by external factors.

However, the wider car market data is very clear. The sales trend for hatchbacks is declining, the sales trends for crossovers is increasing. The demand for crossovers is already greater than the demand for hatches. You’ve basically just ignored 15 years of market trends and data to fit your own narrative.

Do you honestly think that the management at Ford don’t know exactly what their target retail customer and fleet operators actually want?

They’ll focus group the snot out of this every week. They are not just looking at what’s popular today, they are also looking at market trends. Look at the sales up to 2019, it is very clear that consumer tastes are changing and fiesta was going the way of the Mondeo and the Focus. You don’t loose half of your sales because people still want your product…

Ford know exactly what they are doing on this one…

 

[SDK^]

Yea but the fear is justified. If the batteries die you may as well scrap the car. It doesn't get any cheaper to replace them.

EV batteries costing £50k is pure clickbait
You can buy a replacement battery for almost any EV from £2k to £10k, depending on the car and the length of warranty provided .

Want a refurbed battery for a Porsche Taycan - they cost £8.7k

Also, the majority of the time you can swap out the dead cells, so you don’t need to replace the whole unit.

 

[adam cool dude]

However, the wider car market data is very clear. The sales trend for hatchbacks is declining, the sales trends for crossovers is increasing. The demand for crossovers is already greater than the demand for hatches. You’ve basically just ignored 15 years of market trends and data to fit your own narrative.

What sales trend of declining sales? 5 out of the 7 best selling cars this year in Europe are hatchbacks?

Other small hatchbacks have completely outsold the Puma too which the Fiesta never had that problem.

 

[jpaul]

You do come out with some utter tripe sometimes.

The low end of the EV market is 7+ year old Leaf, Zoe, etc.

read the post - mid/low market - do you have any data on leaf/zoe insurance increase ?

 

[b0rn2sk8]

read the post - mid/low market - do you have any data on leaf/zoe insurance increase ?

Since when is a car that costs £50k new which is 2 years old is in the low-mid of the USED car market?

 

[Nasher]

EV batteries costing £50k is pure clickbait
You can buy a replacement battery for almost any EV from £2k to £10k, depending on the car and the length of warranty provided .

Want a refurbed battery for a Porsche Taycan - they cost £8.7k

Also, the majority of the time you can swap out the dead cells, so you don’t need to replace the whole unit.

You can buy used ones for that, not new. But a used battery is still going to be an old one with a shorter life.

 

[SDK^]

You can buy used ones for that, not new. But a used battery is still going to be an old one with a shorter life.

Yes - refurbed = used
..and of course, it’ll fail within 3 years because Geoff and Mac on YouTube said so

 

[Nasher]

Yes - refurbed = used
..and of course, it’ll fail within 3 years because Geoff and Mac on YouTube said so

Refurbed, aka pulled from a wreck and cleaned a bit. There isn't much you can do to restore life to aged batteries.

 

[Tinders]

No worse than buying a used engine. My dad’s retirement hobby is rebuilding engines, Merc 651 and BMW n47 around the 10 year old mark are his staple earners. Don’t even start on the issues with the ford Ecoboost lumps.

 

[AiiR]

I blame all these ridiculous side hustlers out to make a quick buck. No such thing as cheap anymore.

 

[adam cool dude]

No worse than buying a used engine. My dad’s retirement hobby is rebuilding engines, Merc 651 and BMW n47 around the 10 year old mark are his staple earners. Don’t even start on the issues with the ford Ecoboost lumps.

I have been looking out for a cheap one of these (Fiesta) that needs belts doing for my Daughter. A weekends work max in my garage.

This is really the only place where you can still get cheap cars though from people who have two left hands.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

With the Internet the car has been made largely unnecessary

Yeah, I just FTP a weekly shop home and unZip it in the kitchen.

 

[Nasher]

No worse than buying a used engine. My dad’s retirement hobby is rebuilding engines, Merc 651 and BMW n47 around the 10 year old mark are his staple earners. Don’t even start on the issues with the ford Ecoboost lumps.

Old engines are dirt cheap and most of the time still have life in them. You can replace any individual parts. The good ones (Japanese, old American v8s etc) just go on forever. Once EVs get to around the 8 year old mark they are hot potatoes.

Another issue (mostly with Teslas) is people have gone to replace a module and found they have some obscure/obsolete revision of the battery pack, so costs rocket even more as you cant just mix them up. In the more recent ones Musk has made it much worse by sticking all the cells together inside an Eton mess of glue and foam to save some pennies, so good luck replacing those. Not sure how they are going to recycle that either...

 

[ShiWarrior]

Old engines are dirt cheap and most of the time still have life in them. You can replace any individual parts. The good ones (Japanese, old American v8s etc) just go on forever. Batteries have a very limited lifespan usually in single digits. Once EVs get to around the 8 year old mark they are hot potatoes.

Another issue (mostly with Teslas) is people have gone to replace a module and found they have some obscure/obsolete revision of the battery pack, so costs rocket even more as you cant just mix them up. In the more recent ones Musk has made it much worse by sticking all the cells together inside an Eton mess of glue and foam to save some pennies, so good luck replacing those.

that be why they charge the earth to replace them
i did see an article, $25K (if its true)

 

[Nasher]

that be why they charge the earth to replace them
i did see an article, $25K (if its true)

Yep it's very labour intensive on top of the parts cost. Disassemble most of the car to get to it. Then carefully chissel away at a solid foamy mess for hours. It requires breaking the casing too so that would also need replacing.

Very poor design and poor packaging. That's how they were able to knock money off them. Hopefully it isn't too flammable...

 

[katy81]

Yeah, I just FTP a weekly shop home and unZip it in the kitchen.

There's apps, u just browse through on your phone. They unload it in your hallway.