First PC build in 10yrs, so advice appreciated please for a new (gaming) build

NeilF · 23 Feb 2024 at 12:54

I built my current PC nigh on 10yrs ago - with the addition of an NVidia 1070 7yrs ago - and it's finally starting to creek with modern titles. So time to build a new system aimed at running modern titles at 1440p for many years to come, with headroom to upgrade the CPU to say add 30-50% more performance if/when required.

Main requirements are:-

Quiet running with cooling controlled by software fan curves to ramp up fans when need.
At least three M2 slots. One for the OS. One 2tb one for games. And I'll bring over an old third one from my current system for misc data storage - A 5yr old Intel 660p Series 2TB M.2.
Not overly fussed about overclocking, unless it's a simple increase of a multiplier or something. Reliability is important to me.

Component	Description	Cost	Info
Case	Lian Li Lancool 216 Mid-tower RGB PC case	110
CPU Cooler	Noctua NH-D15 Chromax Pure Black	110	Basically same as I have now (a D14)
PSU	MSI MPG A850G UK PSU 850W	130	Enough power I assume?
MB	Asus TUF Gaming Z790-Plus WIFI (LGA 1700) DDR5	210	Better alternative? Ideally want 3 or more nVME, take intel 14th gen proc? Don't need wifi.
CPU	Intel Core i5-12600K Socket LGA1700	167	Better alternative? Integrated GPU nice. Be able to later significantly improve speed with another CPU?
GPU	Asus Dual 4070 OC	550	Seems a good match for 1440p
Memory	Corsair Vengeance 32GB (2X16GB) DDR5 PC5-41600C40 5200MHz Dual Channel Kit	95	Better alternative? Would get RGB but will be covered by DS15 cooler?
M.2 (C drive)	Samsung 990 Evo 1TB M.2 2280 PCI-e 4.0 / 5.0 Hybrid	110	Uses just 2 PCI channels
M.2 (D drive)	Samsung 990 Evo 2TB M.2 2280 PCI-e 4.0 / 5.0 Hybrid	190	Uses just 2 PCI channels
OS	Microsoft Windows 11 Home 64-Bit DVD	110	Windows 11... Blah!

Total is approx £1700-1800 - eek!

Main questions are:-

Are there better alternatives for the MB, CPU and/or PSU etc?
I've gone with an ASUS MB, assuming their current bad press is a blip.
Assume the Asus MB Aura RGB controller socket will take/accept the Lian Li's ARGB wire (to control the front fan colours etc)?

Uber thanks in advance.

Tetras · 23 Feb 2024 at 13:13

I'd get a peerless assassin instead of the Noctua, or ask Noctua for a new mounting bracket for your D14.

NeilF said:
with headroom to upgrade the CPU to say add 30-50% more performance if/when required.

170 is a decent price for the CPU, but you won't get that with the 12600K (at least, not for gaming), I'd switch to AM5 which is supposed to have at least 1, probably 2 or 3 new generations if it follows AM4. While Intel do technically have 2 more generations, the improvement from 12th to 13th/14th (though significant), is not that big and 14th gen is really just a minor upgrade to the clocks (except for the 14600 non-K and 14700/14700K). The other downside is that while you would get a decent improvement from upgrading to e.g. a 14700K/14900K, it would also increase your (stock) power consumption to a degree it is dubiously worth it.

The Asus will take a 14th gen CPU, but FYI: the TUF boards don't have flashback, so I wouldn't buy one with a 14th gen CPU.

Your RAM is a bit on the slow side, even for me.

The SSDs are very expensive when storage is rarely a bottleneck for a gamer and the PCI-E 5.0 is wasted on a board that is entirely PCI-E 4.0.

The A850GF is an old model, by the way, which is pre-ATX 3.0/PCIE 5, not that it matters with the 4070.

I'd check the prices of the 4070 Super before you buy the non-S.

NeilF · 23 Feb 2024 at 13:32

"I'd get a peerless assassin instead of the Noctua" - Purely for cost saving? Even though it appears in reviews to be less efficient/louder?

"170 is a decent price for the CPU, but you won't get that with the 12600K (at least, not for gaming)" - It's going for that on a South American River at the moment.

"I'd switch to AM5" - I'm very unfamiliar with AMD. So which MB and CPU would you suggest then?

"Your RAM is a bit on the slow side, even for me" - I got the impression anything over 5200mhz offered little real world increase? So once again what would you suggest?

"The SSDs are very expensive when storage" - Agree, but that MB is PCI-E 5, so they will use half the lanes of PCI-E M.2 drives.

"The A850GF is an old mode" - Yes, meant the A850G. (Changed OP)

"I'd check the prices of the 4070 Super" - Agreed although the performance increase seems to be just a couple of %.

Tetras · 23 Feb 2024 at 13:49

NeilF said:
Agree, but that MB is PCI-E 5, so they will use half the lanes of PCI-E M.2 drives.

Hmm. I checked again. It is PCI-E 4.0 across all M.2 slots, but the graphics slot is PCI-E 5.0.

FYI: I'm pretty sure any board is permanently wired to use the lanes it uses for the slot, regardless of how many the M.2 drive installed actually makes use of (apart from a switch with the primary or secondary lanes for some boards, but this one doesn't have a switch). In other words: if you install a 2 lane M.2 drive in each slot, it doesn't free them up for general usage.

If you get an Intel board with PCI-E 5.0 M.2 slots, you will lose 8 lanes to the graphics, because the M.2 slot(s) will need to steal the lanes.

NeilF said:
"I'd switch to AM5" - I'm very unfamiliar with AMD. So which MB and CPU would you suggest then?

If I follow the same method as you have above then it would have to be a 7500F or 7600 non-X, ideally with something like the TUF B650-Plus, which would give you 3x M.2 slots (1 is PCI-E 5.0). Most of the bundles I've seen come with low-end boards though, which would only have 2 (or even only 1) M.2 slot. The 7600 non-X is not exclusive to bundles, so you have more choice there. The usual choice for PCI-E 5.0 graphics (on price) is the Strix B650E-F.

NeilF said:
"Your RAM is a bit on the slow side, even for me" - I got the impression anything over 5200mhz offered little real world increase?

Yes, that's true for the most part @ 1440p, but 5600 and 6000 are usually not much more and if you upgrade to 13th/14th gen K CPUs you'd actually be below their stock rating with 5200.

As the CPU ages and the bottleneck is pushed toward the CPU, the RAM speed might be more useful and with future CPUs there could be bigger gains. A lot of the early 12th gen benchmarks weren't with a GPU on the level of a 4090/4080 either, which didn't help show the potential of fast DDR5.

NeilF said:
"170 is a decent price for the CPU, but you won't get that with the 12600K (at least, not for gaming)"

Whoops, my wording. I meant that you won't get a performance increase on the level you quoted with a 12600K, since the 13th/14th gen CPUs aren't that big of a generation leap.

For multithreaded work, you absolutely would, since the 14700K would be a huge upgrade, but 50% for gaming? No. Not unless it was low resolution / esports type scenario, I guess.

With AM4, we got several new generations, so the leap between e.g. a 1600 and 5600 is huge and actually gigantic if we include the 5600X3D. AMD have said they'll support AM5 at least through 2025.

NeilF said:
"I'd get a peerless assassin instead of the Noctua" - Purely for cost saving? Even though it appears in reviews to be less efficient/louder?

Yes.

NeilF · 23 Feb 2024 at 14:39

OK! So your overall suggestions would be...

CPU/MB
Go with something like a Ryzen 5 7600 for £190? Even though the 7600X is only about £10 more?

Get a motherboard something like ASUS TUF GAMING B650-PLUS PCIe5 for £160.

M.2s
Don't worry about PCIe5 compatability as the hit on the PCI lane in truth won't really affect the GPU performance?
So maybe:-

Corsair Force MP600 ELITE 1TB NVMe PCIe 4.0 M.2 - £90
Corsair Force MP600 ELITE 2TB NVMe PCIe 4.0 M.2 - £162

Memory
Corsair Vengeance EXPO 32GB (2X16GB) DDR5 PC5-48000C36 6000MHz - £110 (EXPO is Ryzen specific is it not?)

Cost
This would adjust the original cost about:-

MB: 210 - 160= 50
CPU: 167 - 190= -23
M.2s: 300 - 252= 48
Memory: 95 - 110= -15

Saving of about £60

And you recon the Ryzen route would give more hope for a futute upgrade to a much faster CPU on the same MB? I certainly like the notion it is a far more energy efficient CPU than the Intels that's for sure!

Tetras · 23 Feb 2024 at 15:46

NeilF said:
CPU/MB
Go with something like a Ryzen 5 7600 for £190? Even though the 7600X is only about £10 more?

I prefer the non-X CPUs partly because they include a usable cooler, though the 7500F/7600 one is rather basic. The 7600X is faster at stock.

NeilF said:
Get a motherboard something like ASUS TUF GAMING B650-PLUS PCIe5 for £160.

If you're happy with PCI-E 4.0 graphics and 1x PCI-E 5.0 M.2 slot (the other 2 are 4.0) then the TUF B650-Plus.

If you want PCI-E 5.0 graphics, then the B650E-F Strix or B650E-E. The B650E-E technically has 4 M.2 slots, but 1 of the M.2 slots steals lanes from the graphics card.

The next step up would be something like the TUF X670E-Plus, which has 4 M.2 slots that don't share PCI-E lanes. I personally would not go higher than this with a 7600, but I suppose if you wanted the connectivity and planned a big future upgrade, it could make sense.

NeilF said:
M.2s
Don't worry about PCIe5 compatibility as the hit on the PCI lane in truth won't really affect the GPU performance?

AMD AM5 boards don't have to share lanes because they can support up to 2x PCI-E 5.0 M.2 slots without stealing any from the graphics card. But, it does depend on the board, because the B650E-E does steal some if you fill the 2x PCI-E 5.0 M.2 slots.

Intel boards (12th-14th gen) don't have any PCI-E 5.0 lanes that the M.2 slots can use, so inevitably they have to steal them from the graphics card.

Graphics:
From what we have seen so far, running 8 graphics lanes doesn't lose much performance (usually just a few %), but some games make more use of the PCI-E bus than others, so the performance loss in some games is more significant than this.

The biggest problem seems to be when your motherboard is quite old, since when the PCI-E gen is 2 or more behind, having capped lanes definitely starts to have a bigger impact. We're talking 5+, probably 8+ years though, so that's not a serious consideration for most people.

M.2:
In the benchmarks I've seen, the PCI-E 5.0 drives generally don't show much benefit, except for very large file copy/transfer. Since you can get a PCI-E 5.0 M.2 slot with a 'cheap' board like the TUF B650-Plus, it is not really a big deal either way if you go AMD.

The B650E-F Strix would hedge your bets both ways, since it has PCI-E 5.0 graphics & 1x PCI-E 5.0 slot. Note that the 3rd M.2 slot shares lanes with the second full length slot, so you can't use both.

About AM5 and future upgrades: so far as we know, yes. AMD have said they'll support it for the longer-term and we know at least 1 new generation that is coming. There's also the X3D CPUs, which are like a new generation (in the performance gain) in themselves.

NeilF · 24 Feb 2024 at 11:58

First of all, can I say thanks for all the help. It really is proving invaluable!

So, I think we're getting somewhere!

Motherboard
I see no reason to spend £70 more on the B650E-E over the B650E-F.

So - Asus ROG Strix B650E-F £190 ?

CPU
Seems the Ryzen 5 7600 is the one to go for given the 7600X offers only minimal improvement for more temp/energy.

So - Ryzen 5 7600 - £189

CPU Cooler
Slightly concerned about the Ram clearance on the Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 (£32). But seems the Corsair Vengeance EXPO 32GB (2X16GB) DDR5 PC5-48000C36 6000MHz is 35mm tall which should be OK!?

There's the SE version of it but that seems to not review as well.

M.2
Change of plan then. I can get a single Lexar NM790 M.2 2280 PCIe Gen 4×4 NVMe SSD 4TB for £260 which will fulfill all my needs with just that one single M.2. Would that then be best fitted into the primary PCIe5 slot or one of the secondary ones on the B650E?

Tetras · 24 Feb 2024 at 13:30

NeilF said:
Would that then be best fitted into the primary PCIe5 slot or one of the secondary ones on the B650E?

The best speed is (in theory) from a CPU connected slot, so either the PCI-E 5.0 or the 4.0. You could put it in the 4.0 slot, to leave the 5.0 free for a future upgrade. The 5.0 slot is above the primary PCI-E if the thermals are a consideration.

I believe the chipset connected slot is under the graphics card, so I'd personally leave that one till last anyway.

NeilF said:
Slightly concerned about the Ram clearance on the Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 (£32). But seems the Corsair Vengeance EXPO 32GB (2X16GB) DDR5 PC5-48000C36 6000MHz is 35mm tall which should be OK!?

There's the SE version of it but that seems to not review as well.

@mickyflinn is the cooler man, but yeah, it looks like that is fine. I think Crucial Pro sticks are a bit shorter, but they have JEDEC timings so they're not very popular around here.

tamzzy · 24 Feb 2024 at 13:44

this is what i'd get + a case to your liking (not specced)

My basket at OcUK:

1 x AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D Eight Core 5.00GHz (Socket AM5) Processor - Retail (SKU: CP-3DT-AM) = £349.99
1 x Asus ROG Strix B650E-F Gaming WIFI (Socket AM5) DDR5 ATX Motherboard (SKU: MB-6JX-AS) = £190.00
1 x TeamGroup Delta RGB 32GB (2X16GB) DDR5 PC5-44800C30 6000MHz Dual Channel Kit - Black (FF3D532G6000HC30DC01) (SKU: MY-0B8-TG) = £109.99
1 x MSI MAG A850GL 850W 80 Plus Gold ATX 3.0 PCIE5Modular Power Supply (SKU: CA-012-MS) = £119.99
1 x Powercolor Radeon RX 7900 XT HellHound 20GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GX-1AR-PC) = £709.99
1 x MSI SPATIUM M480 Pro 2TB SSD PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 Solid State Drive (SKU: STO-MSI-00815) = £125.99
1 x Arctic Liquid Freezer III ARGB High Performance CPU Water Cooler - 240mm (SKU: COO-ARC-01986) = £69.95

Total: £1,683.89 (includes delivery: £7.99)

pastymuncher · 24 Feb 2024 at 13:47

Don't get the Peerless Assassin, go for the Thermalright Phantom Spirit PS 120 SE instead. It has a extra heatpipe and performs a little better yet is around the same price. Ram clearance isn't a problem as you can always mount the front fan just above the memory which is what I have done. You don't lose any performance doing this. The actual heatsink itself clears the memory no problem. They really are cracking coolers. I have mine running on the silent profile in the motherboard bios and the cpu never goes above 56 degrees C and the fans never ramp up and remain very quiet. For all intents and purposes my pc runs silently at idle and load.

I have been flipflopping over a 7800X/Asus B650E-E and 32Gb of memory for a while now and after much reading I would be looking at a minimum of 6000mhz C30 right now whether it makes a difference to the 3d cpu's or not. With a platform that is going to be upgradeable for at least another two cpu generations you need to look forward. Buy memory too slow and you could get left behind and need to buy faster memory in future. It's already looking like the next release of Ryzen will support 6400mhz 1:1 with the infinity fabric so personally I would be buying a 6400mhz C32 kit now even if that means setting the timings manually in the bios.

mickyflinn · 24 Feb 2024 at 14:08

The ram clearance is 46mm supposedly so 35mm memory should be fine with the peerless assassin and you can always move the fan up a couple of mm if needed .

There is conflicting info on clearance .

This video below says 30mm before you have to move the fan up .

Skip to 1min 30secs.

pastymuncher · 25 Feb 2024 at 11:00

My memory is 45.6mm tall and like I said I slid the fan up a little to sit over the memory. It has not affected temps in any way. Another thing to factor in is where the primary slots for using two sticks of memory are on the motherboard. On my board they are slots 2 and 4 but if they were 1 and 2 the memory would be inside the fan and sitting in the cut out on the heatsink. I still wouldn't get the Peerless Assassin now and would get the Phantom Spirit PS 120 SE instead. More performance for a similar price, what's not to like?

Tetras · 25 Feb 2024 at 13:24

pastymuncher said:
I still wouldn't get the Peerless Assassin now and would get the Phantom Spirit PS 120 SE instead. More performance for a similar price, what's not to like?

I saw this review yesterday.

Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 EVO Review: This isn’t a competition. This is a massacre.

As long as it will fit in your case, this is the air cooler you should probably buy.

www.tomshardware.com

pastymuncher · 25 Feb 2024 at 13:51

It should be noted that the Evo has different fans to the SE. The SE has TL-C12B V2 fans while the Evo has TL-K12 fans with a new bearing type.

NeilF · 25 Feb 2024 at 15:57

Thanks so much guys! It's really so helpful!

So nearly at the buy stage now...

Cooler
So the ThermalRight Phantom Spirit 120 EVO seems to get some comments it's quite loud so maybe best to stick with the Phantom Spirit PS 120 SE RGB instead? - £32

Question: Is the TF7 thermal paste that comes with it recommended or should I get something else?

CPU
Someone recommended the AMD Ryzen 7 7700 over the 7600, but it's nigh on a £100 more, so I think I'll stick with the 7600 - £189

Memory
Some people have questioned the ram and suggested it should ideally be C30? So, Corsair Vengeance 32GB (2X16GB) DDR5 PC5-48000C30 CAS 30-36-36-76 Timings, 1.40v - £125?

M.2
Instead of the Lexar NM790 4TB NVMe m.2 for £260 I think I'll instead get the faster/better(?) MSI SPATIUM M480 Pro 4TB for £290

Tetras · 25 Feb 2024 at 16:15

NeilF said:
Someone recommended the AMD Ryzen 7 7700 over the 7600, but it's nigh on a £100 more

I like the 7700 in my builds, because it has a better box cooler and sometimes I'll see a build where the 7600X is like.. £230 and then they have a £50 cooler and I think "hmmm.....", but the 7600 at £189 with a £32 cooler, that makes a lot more sense.

NeilF said:
Instead of the Lexar NM790 4TB NVMe m.2 for £260 I think I'll instead get the faster/better(?) MSI SPATIUM M480 Pro 4TB for £290

In Newmaxx's spreadsheet (reddit):

The NM790 uses 232-layer YMTC TLC nand with a Maxio controller and is DRAMless. It has a rating of 3000 TBW in the 4TB capacity.

The M480 Pro uses a Phison E18, has DRAM and 176-layer Micron TLC. It has a rating of 3000 TBW in the 4TB capacity.

Since Phison and Micron are everywhere, the Lexar doesn't have much history to go on, this is what THG said:

The NM790 is in the same boat as the MAP1602, and YMTC’s 232-Layer flash is not as well-tested as Phison’s E18 and Micron’s 176-Layer TLC. There’s bound to be trepidation, not least because other, lesser brands - including no-names - are using the same hardware. Some caution is warranted, but Lexar is one of the more reliable choices.

It is arguably more modern and advanced technically though, as TPU says:

Our new power consumption tests are a great match for the Lexar NM790. It is the most energy-efficient drive in the whole test group—more than twice (!) as efficient as your typical Phison E18+Micron 176-layer drive, a bit less in writes, but still topping our charts.

tamzzy · 25 Feb 2024 at 16:26

Personally would get the 7600 + assassin king 120se. You don't really need a bigger cooler than that for a 7600.

Same with the SSD, would opt for the MSI 480 pro (which is what I speeced coincidentally :cry:

)

NeilF · 25 Feb 2024 at 16:31

^ Thanks for that. Seems the M480 Pro is more trustworthy, even if it is less energy efficient. Given this is a games machine, energy usage while it's on is a minimal concern. Speed and reliability is my big concern so seems the MSI one is the safer beter?

Lexar NM790 4 TB Specs

4 TB, TLC, PCIe 4.0 x4, M.2 2280

www.techpowerup.com

MSI Spatium M480 Pro 2 TB Specs

2 TB, TLC, PCIe 4.0 x4, M.2 2280

www.techpowerup.com

tamzzy · 25 Feb 2024 at 16:35

JFYI re: YTMC flash

PSA: SSDs with YMTC Flash Prone to Failure? Check Your SSDs!

This is a bit of an out-of-cycle update as the bargain-hunting season starts to ramp up and flash memory prices seem to have bottomed out, people may be on the lookout for SSDs. I am certainly no s…

goughlui.com

Edit: it's the 128 layer NAND that's problematic, not the 232 layer that's in the NM790, but still...i'd be weary

pastymuncher · 25 Feb 2024 at 18:41

NeilF said:
Thanks so much guys! It's really so helpful!

So nearly at the buy stage now...

Cooler
So the ThermalRight Phantom Spirit 120 EVO seems to get some comments it's quite loud so maybe best to stick with the Phantom Spirit PS 120 SE RGB instead? - £32

Question: Is the TF7 thermal paste that comes with it recommended or should I get something else?

CPU
Someone recommended the AMD Ryzen 7 7700 over the 7600, but it's nigh on a £100 more, so I think I'll stick with the 7600 - £189

Memory
Some people have questioned the ram and suggested it should ideally be C30? So, Corsair Vengeance 32GB (2X16GB) DDR5 PC5-48000C30 CAS 30-36-36-76 Timings, 1.40v - £125?

M.2
Instead of the Lexar NM790 4TB NVMe m.2 for £260 I think I'll instead get the faster/better(?) MSI SPATIUM M480 Pro 4TB for £290

The TF7 thermal paste is very good plus you get a full tube and not just a sample like with other brands. The Assassin King is also a good cooler and is more than enough for a 7600 but personally I would stick with the Phantom Spirit PS120 SE. My reason is that it's better to have too much cooling now than not have enough should you drop in a more powerful cpu in future and need to buy a bigger cooler.