Very true, another problem is the amount of food that is just wasted by society today.
Why aren't vegans eating the food they ask for?
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Let's cut through the rhetoric. Your refusal to acknowledge *any* nuance – dismissing verifiable high-welfare standards, regulations (however imperfect), and the very possibility of ethical frameworks differing from your own – isn't critical thinking; it's dogma - pure and simple.
Presenting cherry-picked graphic details and emotionally charged videos as the ENTIRE reality, while accusing anyone who disagrees of being "brainwashed" or lacking knowledge, is frankly a rather weak and transparent attempt to shut down genuine discussion, not engage in it.
You claim systemic issues negate any possibility of ethical action short of full abolition, conveniently ignoring efforts towards higher welfare and consumer choice that DO make a difference, even if they don't meet your absolutist standard. Dismissing my (or any other person's) perspective as simply "inherited" or "normalised" (as you have said) is condescending and ignores the considered ethical position I've already outlined – one that balances welfare, sustainability, and the human context.
Frankly, dropping the "Name the Trait" challenge at this point, after repeatedly dismissing counterarguments and resorting to shock tactics, isn't a genuine philosophical debate. To me this is just another a classic derailment tactic used when reasoned debate fails. I'm not playing that game anymore despite trying to engage in a more mutual and neutral way. The burden isn't on me to justify my entire ethical framework to satisfy a demand made in bad faith during a discussion you've rendered unproductive.
Ultimately, we both care about animals and dislike cruelty, but our fundamental ethical premises about the legitimacy of using animals (even under high welfare) and the moral weight we give to different factors lead us to vastly different conclusions.
Perhaps acknowledging these shared concerns (like opposing cruelty) while also clearly acknowledging and respecting the fundamental nature of our ethical disagreement is the only point of "mutual ground" available to us? Though to me it seems you are resolute in being "right" or hold the moral high ground. If that's what you want, fine, you win the debate, you're right. However, it does not change my viewpoint or perspective I'm afraid.
It's clear you're not interested in dialogue, only ideological enforcement. This conversation is therefore pointless and circular - to me it wasn't about winning, nor convincing you, just setting out my stall and hoping you could at least acknowledge there was more to your one sided dogmatic and repetitive rhetoric.
But over what time scale are we talking?
I just looked up food waste by country here
Food Waste by Country 2025
Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.
And per capita there's some quite surprising results. Where it seems a lot of the poorer countries have higher household food wastage than we in the western world. I wasn't expecting that, and wonder if there's other factors like climate and food safety standards playing a factor, rather than just profligacy
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I just looked up food waste by country here
Food Waste by Country 2025
Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.worldpopulationreview.com
And per capita there's some quite surprising results. Where it seems a lot of the poorer countries have higher household food wastage than we in the western world. I wasn't expecting that, and wonder if there's other factors like climate and food safety standards playing a factor, rather than just profligacy
Maybe food rots quicker as it has less preservatives and so on or the weather isn't conducive to being stored for long?
Quite eye opening stats though!
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I just looked up food waste by country here
Food Waste by Country 2025
Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.
And per capita there's some quite surprising results. Where it seems a lot of the poorer countries have higher household food wastage than we in the western world. I wasn't expecting that, and wonder if there's other factors like climate and food safety standards playing a factor, rather than just profligacy
It looks to me a lot of them are touristy places so would have a huge amount of food waste by default.
Vegan diet is a personal choise. However they justify it for themselves, cruelty, ecology, health, whatever floats their boat.
But its different when some try to push it on everyone else.
Here it is natural and even required to have scrutiny, pushback and hostility
If I took up a paleo diet would anybody expect to go back to hunter gatherer society?
Or move to Italy for mediterranean diet?
These to me are as ridiculous suggestions as an idea to slaughter all cattle and poultry and live off famous vegan staple foods like coca-cola and oreo cookies.
But its different when some try to push it on everyone else.
Here it is natural and even required to have scrutiny, pushback and hostility
If I took up a paleo diet would anybody expect to go back to hunter gatherer society?
Or move to Italy for mediterranean diet?
These to me are as ridiculous suggestions as an idea to slaughter all cattle and poultry and live off famous vegan staple foods like coca-cola and oreo cookies.
That's a good point too
The hunter gatherers explicitly worked for their meals and used practically every bit of the animal, so i'm not sure that it was anywhere near as disagreeable as factory farming millions of farm animals to slaughter whilst a huge chunk of it will be wasted just to increase our convenience.
It's unsustainable frankly as the sheer density and poor conditions much of these animals live in means that zoonotic transfer of viruses is more prevalent which as we're seeing with H5N1 with the US is plainly disastrous.
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Better language in that post than I would have used. Well done.
Sadly it's in vein. @Johno please? has absolutely zero interest in engaging in debate. I can go back and find many of my attempts if necessary. The only thing he's interested in is shoving his hilariously dramatic rhetoric down your throat at any cost. I suspect he's failed rather spectacularly on every platform he's tried it on which is why he's resorted to his ridiculous shame and guilt tactics, which demonstrably do nothing but alienate people from his cause.
I suspect he has issues beyond his inability to reason. The kind that would've put people in "special schools" back in the days but are now "treated" whilst they do more damage to themselves in a society they lack the mental fortitude to withstand.
Its the only logical conclusion I can come to as I am simply unable to accept the fact that people so arrogant and stupid exist. I've still got a tiny bit of faith left in humanity.
I suspect he has issues beyond his inability to reason. The kind that would've put people in "special schools" back in the days but are now "treated" whilst they do more damage to themselves in a society they lack the mental fortitude to withstand.
Its the only logical conclusion I can come to as I am simply unable to accept the fact that people so arrogant and stupid exist. I've still got a tiny bit of faith left in humanity.
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True vegans tend to know how to make their own dishes and prefer not to eat all the processed foods.
When I say "true vegans" I am referring to what I have noticed among my friendship groups... One of my friends has been a vegan for over 20 years, she minds her own business, makes her own food and just gets on with life. You would never know she's a vegan unless you went right out and asked her, or if you had her over for dinner. I would call her a true vegan.
Other friends, or acquaintances I know to be vegan are very much the opposite. They jump onboard whatever the new movement is and pretend to be part of it. They'll be vegan and they'll be laud about it. They want everybody to know that they're vegan and they act like they're above people who are not vegan. I'd call this fake veganism. They jump on any trend if they feel it's anti-establishment, whether that be the gay pride, just stop oil or free Palestine. They see how the majority of the population are and they see a group against it so they jump onboard to be part of said group and then look down at everybody else.
These fake vegans are not vegan because they care about the planet or because they care about what they eat. They're vegan to boost their superiority complex and I imagine they also eat all the processed vegan foods. It allows people to see they're vegan and they don't need to spend all the time and effort working out for themselves what they can and can't eat. The vegan trend appears to be declining now, with fewer fake vegans and more true vegans so it's no surprise the processed foods are left rotting on the shelves.
That's just my 2 cents on this.
When I say "true vegans" I am referring to what I have noticed among my friendship groups... One of my friends has been a vegan for over 20 years, she minds her own business, makes her own food and just gets on with life. You would never know she's a vegan unless you went right out and asked her, or if you had her over for dinner. I would call her a true vegan.
Other friends, or acquaintances I know to be vegan are very much the opposite. They jump onboard whatever the new movement is and pretend to be part of it. They'll be vegan and they'll be laud about it. They want everybody to know that they're vegan and they act like they're above people who are not vegan. I'd call this fake veganism. They jump on any trend if they feel it's anti-establishment, whether that be the gay pride, just stop oil or free Palestine. They see how the majority of the population are and they see a group against it so they jump onboard to be part of said group and then look down at everybody else.
These fake vegans are not vegan because they care about the planet or because they care about what they eat. They're vegan to boost their superiority complex and I imagine they also eat all the processed vegan foods. It allows people to see they're vegan and they don't need to spend all the time and effort working out for themselves what they can and can't eat. The vegan trend appears to be declining now, with fewer fake vegans and more true vegans so it's no surprise the processed foods are left rotting on the shelves.
That's just my 2 cents on this.
That's a fair observation. I tend to avoid using the "V" word where I can as it has become such a polarising, emotive term to many, largely because of the sort of fake person you have described.
The people you describe as "true vegans" experience a great deal of prejudice and disrespect in daily interactions because many in society, particularly the hard of thinking (but not exclusively), will automatically associate them with the preachy, judgemental pricks. I'm not vegan but I do eat a plant-based diet and typically don't talk about it unless someone specifically asks me (the irony of this reply is not lost on me). It is a deeply personal choice and I respect the choices others make when it comes to food. My experience in situations such as a social setting or a work event where food is served has been varied, but too often negative when it comes to ordering food. As soon as I finish uttering the word vegan, typically because the plant-based dish is referred to as such on the menu, more often than not someone will chip in with a disrespectful comment and follow it up with a prolonged monologue about why I should eat meat. It will then come up repeatedly throughout the day/night as word spreads and others come to tell me why my choice is wrong. If someone wants to have a discussion in good faith, I'm happy to engage, but it is rare. Mostly I treat it as a bit of distasteful and poorly judged banter, because that's often what it is, but when people cross the line I'll give them a sharp response. The irony is that people like me and some members of my family who quietly go about our business without espousing judgement of others are frequently and automatically judged and pigeon-holed as preachy, judgemental extremists by a fairly significant chunk of society who judge us and preach to us regularly. It can be exhausting (and no....not because of anaemia!).
Freefaller has articulated it much more eloquently than I can...
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I know technically now my daughter and her partner are no longer full vegans if they are eating eggs but that hasn't changed their fundamental view about veganism. Once they calmed down about trying to convert us they are just ordinary people getting on with their lives as has been said above. I believe that my daughter may go back to full vegan once her body regains a balance after the pregnancy, but if she doesn't she has to reconcile that herself not anyone else.
Most people haven't even got a clue what veganism is and as you say they can be just as pig headed and preachy as radical vegans. When our granddaughter has had birthday parties, the food is vegan and none of the kids or parents even notice.
I don't eat eggs but TBF if I had my own chickens I wouldn't let them go to waste I just wouldn't support factory abuse , free range is just a bigger cage or something , the neighbours have some and come walking past chatting to them when they wander off , they are truly free range
I think hard core vegans won't partake in any animal product I would if the animal wasn't harmed or stressed. I mean when I cut my hair. I leave it out for bird nesting material so.........
As for so called fake vegans they are just the Animal eaters who do Veganuary because they know it's the right thing but are too weak willed to carry on , simple really.
You are either comfortable supporting animal abuse or your not , why complicate it
It's really amusing listening to people's justifications , you do it , you feel bad doing it ,.you blame vegans.
Sad really
You are either comfortable supporting animal abuse or your not , why complicate it
It's really amusing listening to people's justifications , you do it , you feel bad doing it ,.you blame vegans.
Sad really
I accept a certain level of animal suffering for my food, but would like it minimised and do make some (probably not enough) food choices to reflect that. I think veganism can easily lead to unhealthy eating, and that a high fat and high protein diet with low carbohydrates (keto) is the most natural and healthiest choice, but I've done my own research and wouldn't feel superior for making that choice.
Everyone accepts some level of culpability for abuse and exploitation in their lives, whether it's animal rights in food (cruelty in animal farming), human rights (colbolt serf miners, sweat shops, economic abuse from the west over other nations, paying taxes to bomb civilians) or environmental (large scale arable agriculture causing slow extinction of birds and insects, palm oil and soy being grown where there was once rain forest, co2 for avocados, travel and cheap goods).
Some people like to ignore that so they can feel better about themselves for choosing to tick one of those items off the list, likely at the expense of another one or two.
He who is without sin, cast the first stone and all that, we are all flawed and have blind spots. If you have a cause then great, within the framework of society you are very welcome to fight for it, but it doesn't make you better than anyone else, and it doesn't necessarily make you right, either.
Everyone accepts some level of culpability for abuse and exploitation in their lives, whether it's animal rights in food (cruelty in animal farming), human rights (colbolt serf miners, sweat shops, economic abuse from the west over other nations, paying taxes to bomb civilians) or environmental (large scale arable agriculture causing slow extinction of birds and insects, palm oil and soy being grown where there was once rain forest, co2 for avocados, travel and cheap goods).
Some people like to ignore that so they can feel better about themselves for choosing to tick one of those items off the list, likely at the expense of another one or two.
He who is without sin, cast the first stone and all that, we are all flawed and have blind spots. If you have a cause then great, within the framework of society you are very welcome to fight for it, but it doesn't make you better than anyone else, and it doesn't necessarily make you right, either.
I (tongue in cheekly) class myself as a vegan....who eats meat (when I'm eating out) 
Mainly because I'm allergic to eggs and intolerant of dairy, so at least with vegan food I know it won't have any of those. But at home I obviously can use my own ingredients and substitute vegan alternatives where necessary, eg: vegan mayonnaise.
But, I try and minimise even those, mainly because as mentioned, they are ultra processed crap and (due to other dietary issues, like histamine intolerance) I try to eat fresh, basic ingredients anyway. I wouldn't buy vegan ready meals just as I wouldn't buy regular ready meals either.
Mainly because I'm allergic to eggs and intolerant of dairy, so at least with vegan food I know it won't have any of those. But at home I obviously can use my own ingredients and substitute vegan alternatives where necessary, eg: vegan mayonnaise.
But, I try and minimise even those, mainly because as mentioned, they are ultra processed crap and (due to other dietary issues, like histamine intolerance) I try to eat fresh, basic ingredients anyway. I wouldn't buy vegan ready meals just as I wouldn't buy regular ready meals either.
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