Caporegime
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General Headphone Audio
- Thread starter garyfl
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Caporegime
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I found these photos on Head Fi for the XS...the price drop coincides with the cheaper box...how expensive were these boxes? lol
Balanced headphone outputs are worse than unbalanced, the only real genuine use case for them is on battery powered daps.
Of course in reality although they measure worse i doubt it's audible.
As said some amps provide more power with their balanced output like the k11 provided 1300mw vs 700 single ended but something like a schiit magni or a topping l30 can provide 5000mw single ended.
Regarding balanced xlr interconnect between devices I agree that for the costs of the cable if your device already has balanced outputs there's no reason not to but I wouldn't go spending hundreds extra on a dac and amp that supports it. The only benefit is cancelling noise really on extremely long cable runs which on a 30cm patch lead is a non issue. In combo units they don't internally wire them with some fancy balanced system so why should it be needed to go to a unit that's sat directly ontop.
I probably should have quoted the original post asking the question but I can't be bothered working out how to change it now on mobile.
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All fully balanced DACs and amps provide the better output on the balanced ports you get amps with balanced ports that are "convenience" ports only and aren't internally balanced though but all fully balanced amps provide more power through those ports unless there are corners being cut.
careful with your wording though, where did you see balanced ports have worse measurements? The entire nature of balanced is to provide a lower noise floor and higher power output, we wont' hear the lower noise floor because unbalanced on a good DAC or amp is already completely silent to human ears, but we will hear the increase in power. I can swap to the single ended output right now and need to crank up the volume several dB in order to get the same loudness from the headphones for example.
You can get high power single ended outputs too that don't feature fully balanced architecture, they are in the minority as fully balanced is the preferred approach.
careful with your wording though, where did you see balanced ports have worse measurements? The entire nature of balanced is to provide a lower noise floor and higher power output, we wont' hear the lower noise floor because unbalanced on a good DAC or amp is already completely silent to human ears, but we will hear the increase in power. I can swap to the single ended output right now and need to crank up the volume several dB in order to get the same loudness from the headphones for example.
You can get high power single ended outputs too that don't feature fully balanced architecture, they are in the minority as fully balanced is the preferred approach.
Audio Myth - Balanced Headphone Amplifiers are Better
This Myth Goes Something Like This: "Balanced headphone amplifiers are better." "If balanced line-level connections work well, balanced headphone outputs should also work well." We disagree! Benchmark does not offer voltage-balanced headphone outputs on any of its products. The reason for this...
benchmarkmedia.com
Balanced headphone outputs don't work the same way as balanced inter connects between a dac and an amp do. The balanced connect between a dac and amp works actively to sum the signals and cancel out noise picked up in the cable. Headphones can't do this. Running fully differential balanced headphone amplification means running two seperate amps and signals to each driver, this doubles the output impedance and doubles the noise. It's likely not audible as said but technically its worse.
The main benefit of balanced headphone outputs is for portable audio where it can increase the output power for a set voltage. Obviously in desktop setups the input voltage is not limited and designing a better higher-powered single ended output would be superior.
The issue is audiophiles love buzzwords and snake oil and are willing to spend a significant amount of money on something they perceive to be superior, hence all the products and marketing around balanced devices. Its especially prevalent in chi-fi brands where they need the buzz and "features" to market and sell their products.
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That's an article from 10 years ago, a heck of a lot has changed in this whole scene in the last few years alone no? Back in 2016 it probably was the case that balanced headphone amps weren’t so great.
I've not seen anything in modern times pointing to obvious flaws in balanced headphones outputs in a fully balanced amp, here's a 2024 article by moon audio I just quickly Googled for ref:
www.moon-audio.com
They say:
Which aligns with what's said earlier, the design of the amp matters the most, as does the specific quality of cable used, and not to use unbalanced to balanced adapters which goes without saying.
I've not seen anything in modern times pointing to obvious flaws in balanced headphones outputs in a fully balanced amp, here's a 2024 article by moon audio I just quickly Googled for ref:
Balanced vs. Unbalanced Headphones: Which is Better?
Why Your Headphones May Be Holding You Back: What Audiophiles Know Arguably, one of the most common misconceptions in the world of audio equipment and recording studios is that headphones can be balanced and unbalanced. Whether you’re working with guitars, keyboards, or high-end audio gear, it’s...
www.moon-audio.com
They say:
Which aligns with what's said earlier, the design of the amp matters the most, as does the specific quality of cable used, and not to use unbalanced to balanced adapters which goes without saying.
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That's an article from 10 years ago, a heck of a lot has changed in this whole scene in the last few years alone no? Back in 2016 it probably was the case that balanced headphone amps weren’t so great.
I've not seen anything in modern times pointing to obvious flaws in balanced headphones outputs in a fully balanced amp, here's a 2024 article by moon audio I just quickly Googled for ref:
Balanced vs. Unbalanced Headphones: Which is Better?
Why Your Headphones May Be Holding You Back: What Audiophiles Know Arguably, one of the most common misconceptions in the world of audio equipment and recording studios is that headphones can be balanced and unbalanced. Whether you’re working with guitars, keyboards, or high-end audio gear, it’s...
They say:
Which aligns with what's said earlier, the design of the amp matters the most, as does the specific quality of cable used, and not to use unbalanced to balanced adapters which goes without saying.
That article says that on a fully differential device, the balanced output will sound better than the single-ended output of the same device but doesnt explain why or give any details? And I agree a lot has changed in the last 10 years however the basic principles of the single ended vs fully differential architectures and physics has not changed at all so the points in that article about doubling of impedance and doubling of noise still stand. The moon article also corroborates what the other article was saying, which is that balanced headphone outputs don't work the same as balanced interconnects between dacs and amps.
"Any headphone amp is what we call a differential amplifier circuit. It's not a common-mode rejection. You can't do common-mode rejection with a headphone because it's a speaker."
But yes I agree that the actual design and implementation of the circuit matters most, my point was just at the most basic level balanced headphone outputs are fundamentally worse in the ways mentioned. Obviously, a well-designed balanced implementation can still be better than a poorly designed single-ended one or vice versa but considering a fully balanced device needs to double up every component, it makes sense you can produce a single-ended device of the same quality for half the price or of superior quality for a similar price. So as I was trying to say don't go chasing after a device with balanced outputs for the sake of it.
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"Heard the Fosi i5 first. Comfy, looks like a Susvara. At first glance the bass is pretty good. It's elevated with a good amount of body and heft. Midrange has a vocal forwardness to it which some people might like. There's a sizable midtreble peak somewhere that's fairly prominent and brings sibilance. Not intolerable for me, but pretty close to being too much. It's less intensely sharp/harsh than some of the HiFiMan peaks can be. Decent staging, feels fairly open."
Caporegime
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Reddit - The heart of the internet
"Heard the Fosi i5 first. Comfy, looks like a Susvara. At first glance the bass is pretty good. It's elevated with a good amount of body and heft. Midrange has a vocal forwardness to it which some people might like. There's a sizable midtreble peak somewhere that's fairly prominent and brings sibilance. Not intolerable for me, but pretty close to being too much. It's less intensely sharp/harsh than some of the HiFiMan peaks can be. Decent staging, feels fairly open."
I see mrk has already commented on it
Soldato
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Audio Myth - Balanced Headphone Amplifiers are Better
This Myth Goes Something Like This: "Balanced headphone amplifiers are better." "If balanced line-level connections work well, balanced headphone outputs should also work well." We disagree! Benchmark does not offer voltage-balanced headphone outputs on any of its products. The reason for this...
Balanced headphone outputs don't work the same way as balanced inter connects between a dac and an amp do. The balanced connect between a dac and amp works actively to sum the signals and cancel out noise picked up in the cable. Headphones can't do this. Running fully differential balanced headphone amplification means running two seperate amps and signals to each driver, this doubles the output impedance and doubles the noise. It's likely not audible as said but technically its worse.
The main benefit of balanced headphone outputs is for portable audio where it can increase the output power for a set voltage. Obviously in desktop setups the input voltage is not limited and designing a better higher-powered single ended output would be superior.
The issue is audiophiles love buzzwords and snake oil and are willing to spend a significant amount of money on something they perceive to be superior, hence all the products and marketing around balanced devices. Its especially prevalent in chi-fi brands where they need the buzz and "features" to market and sell their products.
This is spot on, especially regarding chi-fi brands, they pushed 'balanced' hard as a golden feature to give people a reason to upgrade, they have the capacity to move a lot quicker than the western market having quite a big influence over headphone amp design over recent years, they have started doing the same with relay volume controls being pushed as the next 'audio wonder', and they are still squeezing the lemon out of the R2R DAC tech also, I think surely after a slew of mega 10w relay volumed controlled R2R amp/dac combos with VU's (cue Homer Simpson car) they will of ran out of ideas/mud to throw at the wall.
I think there are a lot more new people to the hobby these days that get caught up in the 'buzz words' being thrown around, chi-fi brands did the same with IEM's pushing the market with multiple drivers and people suck it up and assume that single driver dynamics can't compete, even though my own personal experience with the IE600 (single dynamic) is one of the best IEMs I've heard/owned under 1k!, there is so much fluff being pushed today.
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Caporegime
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@mrk How much did they take from your card for the i5?
Mine came to £341 for the one with the extra cable.
Mine came to £341 for the one with the extra cable.
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I had some interesting results with a DIY "pseudo-balanced" single-ended source into dual-mono with isolated active ground headphone driver headphone amplifier and my HD600s - it was obviously taking significantly better control over the drivers than a normal single-ended amplifier.
EDIT: NwAvGuy did an article on these kind of designs (same applies with various takes on balanced amplifiers) https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/05/virtual-grounds-3-channel-amps.html as to the impedance, noise floor and cross-talk considerations but a dual-mono variation of that 3 channel design can actually produce a pleasing listening experience none the less.
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I had the original Sennheiser IE80 back in the day,m ludicrously expensive but amazing sounding for the time. Easily considered one of the legendary IEMs but years later I got chifi bluetooth aptX TWS buds that put Chinese brands on the map for me as those sounded not only more characterful, but made music "fun" again which was too sterile by comparison on the IE80, even if the IE80 had better resolution.
I would not knock what some Chinese brands are doing, they are introducing stuff to an audience that would otherwise be throwing money away buying Beats headphones and whatnot. At least here people can spend less and get more. It's the truth that Western brands often drag their feet and only kick up a gear once they realise they have dragged for too long.
Important questions remained unanswered.
I would not knock what some Chinese brands are doing, they are introducing stuff to an audience that would otherwise be throwing money away buying Beats headphones and whatnot. At least here people can spend less and get more. It's the truth that Western brands often drag their feet and only kick up a gear once they realise they have dragged for too long.
I see mrk has already commented on it
Important questions remained unanswered.
Same
Caporegime
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Ah cool, and I just realised these have officially become my most expensive headphones lol.
Even more than my Sony XM1, XM4, Momentum’s, HD600.
Even more than my Sony XM1, XM4, Momentum’s, HD600.
Soldato
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Chi-fi brands imo have pushed things to fast in the name of fast sale through and profit margins with lower QC, rapidly adding new features being pitched as 'sound quality enchantments' but don't really warrant the argument for an upgrade in that aspect, sometimes an industry can move to fast, it's great that there are cheaper well measuring gear for people but they also have their pitfalls in terms of updates and support, I've tested quite a bit of chi-fi over the years, right from a Matrix M-Stage HPA1 headphone amp which was the early days of chi-fi gear (was the best budget amp for a HD800 at the time), and genuinely nearly all of them have had issues and next to no support out of warranty).
Now, come Chord (Britsh) and Violectric (German), and JDS Labs (US), I bought a Chord DAC from eBay that was damaged in the post, RCA's got knocked, Chord offered to repair out of warranty for a small charge, Violectric, bought amp off ebay, right channel was faulty, again we presumed that it got damaged in the post, second-hand, third owner, and Violectric pick it up from my house and shipped to Germany for full service and repair free of charge!, and then JDS Labs, they were amazing, I thought there was something wrong with my Element 3 bought second-hand, the owner of the company emailed back and said he would send me a new one express delivery from the states!, luckily I found out it was a faulty wallwart and emailed back in time to halt delivery of the amp, amazing service from these guys.
There is something to be said for owning gear from a company that seems to genuinely have a passion for what they do, hand built, a story and history behind them, and the support also, your not just buying specs.
Now, come Chord (Britsh) and Violectric (German), and JDS Labs (US), I bought a Chord DAC from eBay that was damaged in the post, RCA's got knocked, Chord offered to repair out of warranty for a small charge, Violectric, bought amp off ebay, right channel was faulty, again we presumed that it got damaged in the post, second-hand, third owner, and Violectric pick it up from my house and shipped to Germany for full service and repair free of charge!, and then JDS Labs, they were amazing, I thought there was something wrong with my Element 3 bought second-hand, the owner of the company emailed back and said he would send me a new one express delivery from the states!, luckily I found out it was a faulty wallwart and emailed back in time to halt delivery of the amp, amazing service from these guys.
There is something to be said for owning gear from a company that seems to genuinely have a passion for what they do, hand built, a story and history behind them, and the support also, your not just buying specs.
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There are always exceptions to the norm on both sides. I've had several NAD amps over the years and only once, with the C320 Bee did NAD replace a transformer out of warranty but only because they never saw one of them fail and wanted to use mine as a study to figure out how/why. All other NAD post-warranty issues (which happened with all of them) were either NAD wanting nearly full price of a new unit to repair, or just be told no and the retailer then feeling bad and offering a discount voucher for another purchase.
That was NAD UK of course, meanwhile, I can fire an email to most of these Chinese brands and they're happy to send a part or new unit or something after understanding the situation. This isn't just with audio, but all types of tech products. Again, there are exceptions and usually you only read about the bad experiences online as few people proactively share positive ones as moaning is easier than praising for them.
Anyway the XLR headphones cable from Openheart arrived and immediately a couple issues were evident, one of which is with the cable itself, they printed L and R on each connector the wrong way round. Amazing.
As this is my first try with an XLR headphones cable, it seems it doesn't use a jack connection sensing tech so you need to manually switch the output from the rear ports to the front headphone XLR port if you're on a DAC as opposed to just a headphones amp which only outputs via the front. The 4.4mm and 6.35 auto switch when you connect headphones. And specific to the X9 as it's a unique feature of the amp, the selft-detecting impedance feature only works on 6.35 and 4.4mm outputs, not XLR, so you gotta manually adjust the gain if using XLR cables on any given headphones.
I'll keep the cable anyway as it's really nice build quality and may be of use in future with other headphones etc, just a surprise that XLR4 is so /basic/.
Will be sticking with the Tripowin 4.4mm for main use.
That was NAD UK of course, meanwhile, I can fire an email to most of these Chinese brands and they're happy to send a part or new unit or something after understanding the situation. This isn't just with audio, but all types of tech products. Again, there are exceptions and usually you only read about the bad experiences online as few people proactively share positive ones as moaning is easier than praising for them.
Anyway the XLR headphones cable from Openheart arrived and immediately a couple issues were evident, one of which is with the cable itself, they printed L and R on each connector the wrong way round. Amazing.
As this is my first try with an XLR headphones cable, it seems it doesn't use a jack connection sensing tech so you need to manually switch the output from the rear ports to the front headphone XLR port if you're on a DAC as opposed to just a headphones amp which only outputs via the front. The 4.4mm and 6.35 auto switch when you connect headphones. And specific to the X9 as it's a unique feature of the amp, the selft-detecting impedance feature only works on 6.35 and 4.4mm outputs, not XLR, so you gotta manually adjust the gain if using XLR cables on any given headphones.
I'll keep the cable anyway as it's really nice build quality and may be of use in future with other headphones etc, just a surprise that XLR4 is so /basic/.
Will be sticking with the Tripowin 4.4mm for main use.
Precisely why I use NVA hi-fi (mono blocks, passive pre-amp & phono pre-amp).
Just caught up on Balanced conversation above, but the sense I got is that balanced can make sense where you want more power to drive higher impedance headphones, or from a convenience POV where all your headphones are wired for balanced. Certainly looking at something like the Fiio K7 from a few years ago the SE output is no better than the Fiio K5 it (sort of) succeeded; all the improvements and features were on the balanced side. And Fiio doesn't seem that alone in making balanced a feature on many of its entry level DAC/AMPs (i.e. Fosi Audio K7 etc.). And where as balanced was exotic when I first got into the hobby all of the more recent entry-level DAC/AMPs I have all seem to have Balanced & SE outputs and for the HD 6x0 it makes sense to use balanced. Certainly where the prices of aftermarket cables are concerned it doesn't really matter whether it is balanced or SE.
I just picked up a third one of these for my HD 6x0 'phones for £36. So I now have 3; 2 balanced & 1 SE.
The Sky Audio Cables custom cable I got is nicer and more options to configure, but ended up being nearly twice the price. And stuff like Custom Cans cables is even more expensive. Again I'm sure they are all nice, but it's hard to argue with the Tripowin cables for the price.