What do gamers actually think about Ray-Tracing?

humbug · 20 May 2025 at 22:31

Calin Banc said:
By that logic every movie will look the same and yet it doesn't. BTW, Star Citizen will use RT, so... RT is just accurate lighting, it doesn't take away the art. It enhances it.

I'm going to need a better GPU than my current 7800 XT to run it for sure but overall i'm not worried about it, they have given serval technical talks on it, in short they are taking a performance efficient approach to it.

Right now they are trying to get SC into a state that is acceptable for 'normies' my words not theirs, but its obvious that they want it to be playable for normal people coming in to it off the back of Squadron 42 next year, the game has been in a live game development since day one, its never really had the traditional bug fixing and optimisation games go through before release. Now because Squadron is going to be released they want it to be much more polished for those expecting that.
RT will probably wait until after that, i'm assuming because that requires Vulkan which is in but in Beta form, its a big code upgrade that they aren't going to want until they have the existing code straightened out,

I plan on having a new GPU before Squadron, so i think that will include Ray Tracing.

mrk · 31 May 2025 at 21:19

Another RTX Remix classic enters the scene.

syks · 31 May 2025 at 21:26

Like ray tracing myself, however...i dont think it should be baked into a game, it should be a choice and you should always be able to turn it on and off.

mrk · 31 May 2025 at 21:50

Making it a choice means wasting time and resources in baking it all in when it's 2025 and everyone can run games with HWRT enabled. Doom Dark Ages is proof of that. if you can't run it then point fingers at the dev of your fav games not at the tech. There are other examples too but the new Doom is the newest release.

That's the long and short of it. Baked lighting holds back advancement and efficiency.

Zarax · 2 Jun 2025 at 07:54

Doom is an outlier though, most games are way less efficient in resource usage...

brostradamus · 2 Jun 2025 at 07:57

how does remix actually work. does it hook into api calls and then convert them to the rtx rendering path? can this be done without access to game's source code?

mrk · 2 Jun 2025 at 08:01

Zarax said:
Doom is an outlier though, most games are way less efficient in resource usage...

Alan Wake 2 is the same, though it's on its own custom engine and benefits RTX cards because they fully support the DX tech efficiently. There is like a 60% boost in RT performance as a result than not using the tech when stuff like SER/OMM etc are enabled. It's the only game supporting these new DXR supported features though currently but MS has released full support for them as of now.

Microsoft Agility SDK DirectX Now Adds Shader Execution Reordering & Opacity Micromaps Support, Huge Ray Tracing Improvements On NVIDIA Hardware

Microsoft has released its latest Agility SDK, DirectX, which brings major ray tracing improvements with SER & OMM support.

wccftech.com

Again, people need to hold lazy devs and publishers to account when they release games that don't perform well with RT/PT, this also means every single UE5 game. Epic does provide the means to optimise, devs choose not to because it costs them time so we get games that need months of "patching", if they ever get fixed at all in some cases.

brostradamus said:
how does remix actually work. does it hook into api calls and then convert them to the rtx rendering path? can this be done without access to game's source code?

brostradamus · 2 Jun 2025 at 09:04

i just looked up the internet its some kind of a reverse engineering tool, it takes a scene then converts it into some nvidia proprietary format and then replaces light sources or something during runtime, but i am still not clear about how it exactly does this on a tech layer

nutsnut · 2 Jun 2025 at 10:35

Still to date only played one game where IMO it has been implemented well, is playable and makes a noticeable difference and that was Metro Exodus

Game · 2 Jun 2025 at 10:47

nearly 8 years old now

humbug · 2 Jun 2025 at 15:30

mrk said:
Making it a choice means wasting time and resources in baking it all in when it's 2025 and everyone can run games with HWRT enabled. Doom Dark Ages is proof of that. if you can't run it then point fingers at the dev of your fav games not at the tech. There are other examples too but the new Doom is the newest release.

That's the long and short of it. Baked lighting holds back advancement and efficiency.

I don't think that's a great example to make this argument given that Doom the Dark Ages is not doing well, the previous game had 3X the peak player count.

You need a minimum 5060 Ti 16GB / RX 7700XT to run Dark Ages consistently above 60 FPS at 1080P Medium, i'll say that again, 1080P Medium settings.
Not many people have GPU's above that of a 4060 Ti and even those who do are not going to be happy with 1080P Medium settings.
Its just another game where people are required to spend £1000+ on the most up-to-date GPU just to play it at decent visuals and frame rates. Even the 5080 can only just manage to maintain over 100 FPS at 1080P Medium....

No one wants this crap. The truth is no one uses RT, so now they are forcing the issue, well prepare to lose your jobs.

bigmike20vt · 2 Jun 2025 at 15:35

60 fps at medium detail levels seems perfectly fine to me with a mid range gpu. looks to me it is playable on a 3060 gpu which is a pretty old mid range gaming gpu now (at a guess getting on for 6 years old?)

maybe it is doing badly because its not a very good game, which is a separate issue to it being technically impressive.

personally i limit all my games outside of VR to 75fps and have a 3090.

the 5060ti is not an amazing gpu really.... and the graph above shows it.

a 4060ti can manage 60fps medium detail as well and a 3060ti comes pretty damn close. if anything that graph shows just how stagnated gpus have become

humbug · 2 Jun 2025 at 15:40

bigmike20vt said:
60 fps at medium detail levels seems perfectly fine to me with a mid range gpu. looks to me it is playable on a 3060 gpu which is a pretty old mid range gaming gpu now (at a guess getting on for 6 years old?)

maybe it is doing badly because its not a very good game, which is a separate issue to it being technically impressive.

On a fast paces first person shooter, yeah..... above 60 is the absolute rock bottom minimum and you need the latest £450 GPU to do it, 1080P medium settings.... WTF are we doing here?

No... people are not buying it, littrally.

humbug · 2 Jun 2025 at 15:45

"The 5060 Ti is not a great GPU" is the 3080 also not a good GPU? the 4070? the 5070? the 3090 can only manage 85 FPS+ at 1080P medium, is that a bad GPU?

no_1_dave · 2 Jun 2025 at 15:56

There is no excuse to not use RT in modern titles and all new titles should move away from baked lighting

Look at the past:
Pixel shaders - If your GPU was 2 years old you were out of luck
Pixel Shader 2.0 - Again, if your GPU was 2 years old you were out of luck
DX9 - Some games required it when it was only a year old
DX9.0C - 2 Years again before it started to be required

Raytracing, even simple RT lighting - "Whaaa I can't run it on my 8 year old graphics card"
When people buy a mid-range card they need to accept that it is for mid-range performance and some of the newest tech won't run on it. That's why it's mid-range.

I don't understand why people struggle with this concept when it was accepted for decades. Maybe just something with this generation? Too used to being handed everything on a plate and having people tiptoe around their feelings? What's changed? Why do people have the mindset that a mid-range card should play all latest titles with max settings at 60-120 fps? Isn't that what the high end cards are for?

PC gaming was always about pushing the boundaries, if you wanted to spend once and have that hardware last for 5-6 years playing the latest games you buy a console.

humbug · 2 Jun 2025 at 16:02

no_1_dave said:
There is no excuse to not use RT in modern titles and all new titles should move away from baked lighting

Look at the past:
Pixel shaders - If your GPU was 2 years old you were out of luck
Pixel Shader 2.0 - Again, if your GPU was 2 years old you were out of luck
DX9 - Some games required it when it was only a year old
DX9.0C - 2 Years again before it started to be required

Raytracing, even simple RT lighting - "Whaaa I can't run it on my 8 year old graphics card"
When people buy a mid-range card they need to accept that it is for mid-range performance and some of the newest tech won't run on it. That's why it's mid-range.

I don't understand why people struggle with this concept when it was accepted for decades. Maybe just something with this generation? Too used to being handed everything on a plate and having people tiptoe around their feelings? What's changed? Why do people have the mindset that a mid-range card should play all latest titles with max settings at 60-120 fps? Isn't that what the high end cards are for?

PC gaming was always about pushing the boundaries, if you wanted to spend once and have that hardware last for 5-6 years playing the latest games you buy a console.

They are welcome to this attitude, if they have it, they can do what they want.

What they are not entitled to is peoples money, they are not owed a paid existence for simply making a game, they have to earn it, they have to make things that people want to buy.

The gaming industry as a whole fails to understand that, which is why it blames everyone but themselves when people don't buy their games and they lose their jobs.

humbug · 2 Jun 2025 at 16:06

That is to say when you lock out a significant chunk, if not even most of your potential customers don't be surprised when your game flops.

Rogueywon · 2 Jun 2025 at 16:25

no_1_dave said:
There is no excuse to not use RT in modern titles and all new titles should move away from baked lighting

Look at the past:
Pixel shaders - If your GPU was 2 years old you were out of luck
Pixel Shader 2.0 - Again, if your GPU was 2 years old you were out of luck
DX9 - Some games required it when it was only a year old
DX9.0C - 2 Years again before it started to be required

Raytracing, even simple RT lighting - "Whaaa I can't run it on my 8 year old graphics card"
When people buy a mid-range card they need to accept that it is for mid-range performance and some of the newest tech won't run on it. That's why it's mid-range.

I don't understand why people struggle with this concept when it was accepted for decades. Maybe just something with this generation? Too used to being handed everything on a plate and having people tiptoe around their feelings? What's changed? Why do people have the mindset that a mid-range card should play all latest titles with max settings at 60-120 fps? Isn't that what the high end cards are for?

PC gaming was always about pushing the boundaries, if you wanted to spend once and have that hardware last for 5-6 years playing the latest games you buy a console.

I remember when Wing Commander came out in 1990, there were PCs made less than a year previously that couldn't run it. The '90s were absolutely brutal in terms of obsolescence.

The 1000-series has had a good innings, but nobody should be surprised that it's finally obsolete.

t2na · 2 Jun 2025 at 16:34

It plays nicely on the PS5, Series X and PS5 Pro at a pretty locked 60fps. Considering the majority of gamers are on consoles too, I don't think its a bad thing to want to move tech on to include these things as standard. We're starting to see it in a fair amount of PS exclusive titles releasing with elements of RT being standard, and AC Shadows, where the lighting with RT is so much better than the non-RT mode.

I think one of the main reasons why sales are down on the new game is because it's on Game Pass right away and the cost was higher than any previous game (about 10 quid more). Game Pass takes a huge hit away from Steam purchases because people can just pay for a month of Game Pass, smash the game out and never touch it again.

Options are nice, I don't think Doom is a great example though because the game plays so well and so smooth even at 60fps.

mrk · 2 Jun 2025 at 16:47

Posting user charts of a game available on gamepass is not a sensible metric to use as the bulk of the player base will be on game pass especially given the cost of the game outside of gamepass.

Nobody will be losing their jobs lol.

If you don't like RT that's cool, you just won't be able to play the latest games. The consoles do hardware RT just fine, you can get a PS5 Pro or whatever else is coming in due course

And no it isn't forcing anything, it's natural progression of technology to improve visual quality and overall efficiency as has been documented and stated by actual game devs time after time but we still see the same folks saying they know better.

E* typo