I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle again, that there are headphones like the HD 6x0, R70X/Xa or DT 880 600ohm where power does matter, but it's over analysed/overrated as mentioned.
General Headphone Audio
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I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle again, that there are headphones like the HD 6x0, R70X/Xa or DT 880 600ohm where power does matter, but it's over analysed/overrated as mentioned.
This took a while but... My view is that it's on the same sort of level as PC hardware having been in that game for literal decades. For example the latest gaming mice in the top tier groups costing £200+, do they offer better sensor tracking than one costing half the price? Nope, they may even be using the exact same sensor. It's the subtle nuances you're paying extra for, or an overall package of refinements over the cheaper one such as build quality or ergonomics or weight. I realised this fairly quickly as a tester of both entry level and high end mice and keyboards over the last year or so.
In relation to audio, not so different, things change as the industry moves on with the tech, what was once expensive is now pittance and can be featured on everything, and yeah the marketing departments for many of these brands may go OTT with how they promote certain things, but those who know will just gloss over them and make use of the feature in whatever use-case they may have for it, balanced HP output being twice as powerful as unbalanced, for example, so driving those hungry headphones is much easier without having to max out the volume dial.
On the volume (power) front, I found out that you don't need much power to drive most headphones to deafening levels of loudness. My first third party DAC/Amp once I finally sacked off NAD and their planned obsolescence just out of warranty issues, was the Topping MX3S, that amp has a headphones output of only 100mW at 300 ohms, and the HD650 more than loud enough at moderate volume at high gain on that. no problems whatsoever, no distortion or anything.
Once I started getting interested in Planars it became obvious that the MX3S didn't have circuitry even with its 700mW at 32 ohms to drive massive magnet arrays and would instead trip the protection mode, that's where the search began for a better suited headphones amp for that purpose.
In that journey I realised that the point of diminishing returns is now priced so low that you can't go wrong with even entry level DACs/amps or dongle DACs even. What matters more is the quality of the headphones or speakers. The more expensive DACs/amps in the chain offer subtle nuances here and there, bit of refined soundstage here, expanded stereo imaging there, both of which are subjective anyway, though Planars being bright in nature would indicate a smoother and warmer amp being best suited to them, which just so happened to be my exact sound signature preference, which I often call the "NAD sound".
As you said, no reason to not go balanced now, otherwise you're only making use of half the amp, the cables are cheap, the headphones all support it, the amps are engineered for it (as long as fully balanced....).
In the simplest form, is a £1000 DAC/amp £800 better sounding than one that cost £200? Nope, the point of diminishing returns note from earlier comes back into discussion.
Likewise was the more powerful Topping DX3 Pro+ better than the MX3S for headphones? Nope, in fact it had features cut, a worse volume pot and died after a week or so of use, amazing!
Same question could be asked about the HD660S2 vs the HD650, I had the 660S2 and did not think they sounded twice as good as the HD650 given they cost double the price. A bit more sub-bass and more veil and that was it. I had the FiiO K7 around that time so plenty of power as well for the sake of scaling.
With the X9 DAC, I just found the higher end unit offers is considerably better build quality, internal component design being better thought out such as high quality PCB, thick traces, isolated power boards and noise control, connecting cable quality between jacks and boards, usability ergonomics and some USP features not found anywhere else.
The sound is still amazing through them all, but there are obvious refinements here and there again in stuff like soundstage and imaging, but the plus point now is that on units like the X9, you can tailor those refinements however you like thanks to those USP features. I don't personally use them as bypass mode offers enough refinement over what I've tried before with my specific speakers and headphones that I'd prefer to keep the source input signal as honest as possible but just have those subtle refinements in place and this then becomes my new reference setup to compare other stuff against when stuff gets sent in - And since it cost me nothing, I've not had to wedge out extra cash for what would otherwise be subtle improvements. But given those features are now there, I know that I can make use of them on other headphones down the line which adds service longevity to such a product.
What all these paragraphs of text mean is essentially that it's all hugely subjective and specifically boils down to individual use-cases and the type of headphones you have vs the type of sound signature you prefer. Me I don't care about the most precise resolution possible, to me that sounds too clinical/sterile and makes music boring, even if it is very detailed. I want music to sound fun, and sometimes holding back some of that high range detail but bumping the soundstage and imaging is the way to go, at least with Hifiman {lanars. Will that change when the LCD-5 and Fosi i5 arrive? I don't think so as I'm quite specific with the kind of sound i like, but reading comments and other reviews of the lCD-5 has given me the impression that they are very clinical as they focus on resolving power over making music "fun".
Though then again I have a smooth and warm sounding amp with the ability to completely change the signature of any headphone with HP-EQ, so it will be interesting how that plays out with the LCD-5.
In relation to audio, not so different, things change as the industry moves on with the tech, what was once expensive is now pittance and can be featured on everything, and yeah the marketing departments for many of these brands may go OTT with how they promote certain things, but those who know will just gloss over them and make use of the feature in whatever use-case they may have for it, balanced HP output being twice as powerful as unbalanced, for example, so driving those hungry headphones is much easier without having to max out the volume dial.
On the volume (power) front, I found out that you don't need much power to drive most headphones to deafening levels of loudness. My first third party DAC/Amp once I finally sacked off NAD and their planned obsolescence just out of warranty issues, was the Topping MX3S, that amp has a headphones output of only 100mW at 300 ohms, and the HD650 more than loud enough at moderate volume at high gain on that. no problems whatsoever, no distortion or anything.
Once I started getting interested in Planars it became obvious that the MX3S didn't have circuitry even with its 700mW at 32 ohms to drive massive magnet arrays and would instead trip the protection mode, that's where the search began for a better suited headphones amp for that purpose.
In that journey I realised that the point of diminishing returns is now priced so low that you can't go wrong with even entry level DACs/amps or dongle DACs even. What matters more is the quality of the headphones or speakers. The more expensive DACs/amps in the chain offer subtle nuances here and there, bit of refined soundstage here, expanded stereo imaging there, both of which are subjective anyway, though Planars being bright in nature would indicate a smoother and warmer amp being best suited to them, which just so happened to be my exact sound signature preference, which I often call the "NAD sound".
As you said, no reason to not go balanced now, otherwise you're only making use of half the amp, the cables are cheap, the headphones all support it, the amps are engineered for it (as long as fully balanced....).
In the simplest form, is a £1000 DAC/amp £800 better sounding than one that cost £200? Nope, the point of diminishing returns note from earlier comes back into discussion.
Likewise was the more powerful Topping DX3 Pro+ better than the MX3S for headphones? Nope, in fact it had features cut, a worse volume pot and died after a week or so of use, amazing!
Same question could be asked about the HD660S2 vs the HD650, I had the 660S2 and did not think they sounded twice as good as the HD650 given they cost double the price. A bit more sub-bass and more veil and that was it. I had the FiiO K7 around that time so plenty of power as well for the sake of scaling.
With the X9 DAC, I just found the higher end unit offers is considerably better build quality, internal component design being better thought out such as high quality PCB, thick traces, isolated power boards and noise control, connecting cable quality between jacks and boards, usability ergonomics and some USP features not found anywhere else.
The sound is still amazing through them all, but there are obvious refinements here and there again in stuff like soundstage and imaging, but the plus point now is that on units like the X9, you can tailor those refinements however you like thanks to those USP features. I don't personally use them as bypass mode offers enough refinement over what I've tried before with my specific speakers and headphones that I'd prefer to keep the source input signal as honest as possible but just have those subtle refinements in place and this then becomes my new reference setup to compare other stuff against when stuff gets sent in - And since it cost me nothing, I've not had to wedge out extra cash for what would otherwise be subtle improvements. But given those features are now there, I know that I can make use of them on other headphones down the line which adds service longevity to such a product.
What all these paragraphs of text mean is essentially that it's all hugely subjective and specifically boils down to individual use-cases and the type of headphones you have vs the type of sound signature you prefer. Me I don't care about the most precise resolution possible, to me that sounds too clinical/sterile and makes music boring, even if it is very detailed. I want music to sound fun, and sometimes holding back some of that high range detail but bumping the soundstage and imaging is the way to go, at least with Hifiman {lanars. Will that change when the LCD-5 and Fosi i5 arrive? I don't think so as I'm quite specific with the kind of sound i like, but reading comments and other reviews of the lCD-5 has given me the impression that they are very clinical as they focus on resolving power over making music "fun".
Though then again I have a smooth and warm sounding amp with the ability to completely change the signature of any headphone with HP-EQ, so it will be interesting how that plays out with the LCD-5.
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As you say headphones and speakers make more of a difference and modern, cheap headphone gear has gotten really good.
Although it feels to me like there's a trend of older, harder-to-drive, higher impedance stuff; i.e. HD 6x0 where the power, or amp could be impactful. And there's newer, low impedance stuff; IEMs, planars where it may be less noticeable. GadgetryTech's recent Audio-Technica R30X review (which is glowing btw) talks about the older R70X/Xa measuring over 1,000 ohms at certain points. I do wonder though if you took comparable price headphones like the HD 660S2 and Arya and put them on a £100 DAC/AMP vs. a £1,000 one which would see the more significant improvement. My guess is the former, but I accept I might be wrong and that's speaks more to the headphones I've named.
Although it feels to me like there's a trend of older, harder-to-drive, higher impedance stuff; i.e. HD 6x0 where the power, or amp could be impactful. And there's newer, low impedance stuff; IEMs, planars where it may be less noticeable. GadgetryTech's recent Audio-Technica R30X review (which is glowing btw) talks about the older R70X/Xa measuring over 1,000 ohms at certain points. I do wonder though if you took comparable price headphones like the HD 660S2 and Arya and put them on a £100 DAC/AMP vs. a £1,000 one which would see the more significant improvement. My guess is the former, but I accept I might be wrong and that's speaks more to the headphones I've named.
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My own experience is that I’ve got to a point where I don’t think I’m paying for noticeable or justifiable sound quality upgrade. If a pair of headphones can disappear on my head, that’s worth paying for.
When people in review say all the buzz words and substantial this and different leagues to that when they are both $500+ bracket headphones. I want to ask them is it really? I would want them to put a pin in the rules of diminishing return graph and place the products they are comparing to. I suspect a lot of these factors, even if it’s objective, it is small.
The most important aspect is sound is very subjective, not only is our hearings are different, we listen to different music in different environment. It’s a bit like buying speakers and you don’t know exactly how it will sound until it’s in your house.
When people in review say all the buzz words and substantial this and different leagues to that when they are both $500+ bracket headphones. I want to ask them is it really? I would want them to put a pin in the rules of diminishing return graph and place the products they are comparing to. I suspect a lot of these factors, even if it’s objective, it is small.
The most important aspect is sound is very subjective, not only is our hearings are different, we listen to different music in different environment. It’s a bit like buying speakers and you don’t know exactly how it will sound until it’s in your house.
Speakers are a good comparison, I had the LS50 Meta and most reviews and reddit said you need a sub whilst others said the bass is great. I got them set up and found the bass was too weak and the way they sounded wasn't as nice to my ears as the KEF Q300 I had for a decade. Back they went.
I then got those B&W speakers, smaller than the KEFs yet kicked out deeper bass, even though the same reviews and reddit said a sub would be needed, nope not needed at all.
The Triangles? Yep same again, some reviews said a sub is needed, whilst others said it's acceptable, yet set up in my room and the bass is almost on level with the KEF Q300 whilst having a lot more resolution and having a more fun/live sound due to those tweeters.
Like I said in my X9 review, the listener matters the most, basically only 2nd to the headphones or speakers pairing, the whole setup needs to gel for individual ears.
I then got those B&W speakers, smaller than the KEFs yet kicked out deeper bass, even though the same reviews and reddit said a sub would be needed, nope not needed at all.
The Triangles? Yep same again, some reviews said a sub is needed, whilst others said it's acceptable, yet set up in my room and the bass is almost on level with the KEF Q300 whilst having a lot more resolution and having a more fun/live sound due to those tweeters.
Like I said in my X9 review, the listener matters the most, basically only 2nd to the headphones or speakers pairing, the whole setup needs to gel for individual ears.
I think comfort is huge where headphones are concerned and there's always personal preferences etc.
But it would be interesting to hear some of these more expensive models. Particularly something like the HD 800. From the descriptions, or measurements it sounds like something I'd not like, but you never know. And in that sense I maybe should visit a CanJam one year just to sample some of these more exotic stuff.
Realistically I agree with you guys around the headphones, preference and diminishing returns. And in that sense that's I think I've my found my endgame for music. For gaming I think I'll always be trying new headphones. I think the recent R30X shows that value proposition is even more off the charts.
But it would be interesting to hear some of these more expensive models. Particularly something like the HD 800. From the descriptions, or measurements it sounds like something I'd not like, but you never know. And in that sense I maybe should visit a CanJam one year just to sample some of these more exotic stuff.
Realistically I agree with you guys around the headphones, preference and diminishing returns. And in that sense that's I think I've my found my endgame for music. For gaming I think I'll always be trying new headphones. I think the recent R30X shows that value proposition is even more off the charts.
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I'm going to see if Richer Sounds down here has it in store so I can demo them using my playlist like I did with speakers way back. Seems the only way to test them out with an amp that outputs similar power to the X9 and has similar characteristics.
Meanwhile, the Fosi i5 status:
www.head-fi.org
Meanwhile, the Fosi i5 status:
Fosi Audio i5 Planar Magnetic Headphones Now Live on Kickstarter – Loved at CanJam, Ready for You!
Hello all Head-fiers, thank you again for your attention to the i5 planar headphones. We'd like to share some updates on the i5 project and some responses to some frequently asked questions we received. 1. Did you fix the sub-bass roll-off issue? Yes, we did! Our original intention with the i5...
www.head-fi.org
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I'm very biased but the HD800S are one of the best headphones I've tried (own) thus far, it arguably has the best soundstage of any headphone in the world, it's pretty much universally praised on that front, I preferred them over the LCD-5 mainly due to tonality reasons, I actually find the HD800S quite neutral to warm sounding, especially compared with LCD-5 which sounds a lot colder, big negative on the HD800S I would say is bass, it's the headphones least strongest point, it's definitely worth going to a CanJam if you can, although the noise doesn't always help but still worth it.
Ferrum WANDLA HP will arrive after June once it goes back to them from another outlet, that will be interesting as it's the top end of the scale and not chi-fi either.
Edit* Fosi i5 competitor potentially:
Just because no mention of return was stated initially doesn't mean they won't ever ask for it back, could be 6 months, could be 6 weeks. It's a long term loan far as I'm concerned in that circumstance. I told them I want to test it over a period of time so I can compare it against other headphones and amps. And no expectation was given or requested on writing a review, though yes, I will review them on Neowin in time, which is the outlet that pays me for my reviews and where my taxes go, again which I do on my own time and terms.
Edit* Fosi i5 competitor potentially:
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I add a 4.5db bass shelf filter in ROON's parametric EQ to my HD800S, it gives them that bit of low down grunt they were missing. I won't push it any higher as unlike my Aryas, they will begin to distort.
Caporegime
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I can only find it for £615 from Aliexpress....
it's almost £300 more than the i5 kickstarter price. The case looks amazing though...I am looking at you Hifiman !
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He compared it against the wrong headphone IMO, the Ananda Nano isn't articulate enough to what sounds like a chilled out planar on the Aiva 2, it is more suited to the Arya Stealth which is also much close in price. He also noted the i5 has no bass, well no review samples have the sealing ring, so should have mentioned that which restores the bass and would remove the brightness peak he also mentions.
Caporegime
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When he reviewed the i5, I commended the same thing that he should have compared it to the Arya, he said the reason he didn't is because he no longer has those so he can only compare to the Nano....which is annoying.
I also commented on his video yesterday that he must have filmed this 3 weeks ago because there is a fix now for the sub bass, other videos released since has mentioned them even if they don't have the mod fix, he just glosses over it completely, not even a text overlay to mention it.
I agree though, he is comparing to the wrong headphones and for us in the UK, these are too expensive if it is $550 in the US.
Seen this with a bunch of reviewers over the last year or so, the most prolific was the Gamers Heaven channel on gaming controllers. Comments point out his errors and he either ignores or deletes them or outright was a bit rude lol. Also never went back to correct errors or update on new fixes and updates when the devs of the product make changes for the better.
Race to the bottom/race to be the first to get a review out no matter the costs. I think the better channels acknowledge mistakes, or do update videos. But I think that's a minority. We'll see a lot of this in the next few days with the Switch 2 given Nintendo didn't send out units in advance (going by that article on IGN). I also think some Youtubers can be a bit lazy, *cough* Zeos. Even though I quite like his way with words, brash New Yorker/NJ style ultimately he still just tries a product for a few minutes and then talks for 20-minutes. Not exactly the hardest editing, or preparation. That's why I quite like GadgetryTech because he really puts the work in. And you tell he uses the product in anger, particularly with some of his comments on comfort, or EQ'ing 'phones for certain games.
That Passion for Sound is an odd one. He has a nice voice, but I don't like the editing and style of the videos. I also wonder if he is too positive sometimes.
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The Passion For Sound guy has no reason not to mention the seal mod, his video came out 3 weeks after the mod was made public and confirmed it is going to be in the final production model. Even if he had shot it before that, just add a quick text overlay as an addendum would be enough. All the other videos on the i5 that was released since then has made mention of this (and I have seen them all), he didn't and it is either pure laziness or just he somehow was not aware of it, which is strange as that's kind of his job to know.
He didn’t even mention it in the comments.
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