Austria mass shooting

[Combat squirrel]

If we use that kind of logic why not ban pets which are at all dangerous as well? if someone really likes animals they can visit a zoo.

There is only so far we should restrict things just because of the actions of a small number of crazy people.

Your example is in no way 'that kind of logic' though, is it ? Why not ban cars then while we are at it ? they kill a lot more people in the UK? - because cars and pets have a utility that isn't 'intentional' - its side affects, guns however are designed to do 1 thing, and animals are just existing, cars get people around - guns have no use other than their design intention.............the line 'its a small number of crazy people' is used constantly by gun lovers ignoring that guns are designed weapons...........you have no logical reason to own a gun - there is a logical reason to own a car or keep pets (which I largely disagree with most kinds of animals btw, dogs and cats have been domesticated so it favours them to live with us, and brings mutual comfort to them and us, but yes you're right, keeping snakes, exotic animals that are not evolved to live in the UK etc is cruel and should be banned)

Guns however, have zero use - the only none lethal use for them is the human emotional enjoyment of target practice - if thats what you like, use an air rifle, still dangerous if used incorrectly, but a LOT less likely to be lethal & very difficult to go on a mass killing spree with.

 

[Rroff]

Your example is in no way 'that kind of logic' though, is it ? Why not ban cars then while we are at it ? they kill a lot more people in the UK? - because cars and pets have a utility that isn't 'intentional' - its side affects, guns however are designed to do 1 thing, and animals are just existing, cars get people around - guns have no use other than their design intention.............the line 'its a small number of crazy people' is used constantly by gun lovers ignoring that guns are designed weapons...........you have no logical reason to own a gun - there is a logical reason to own a car or keep pets (which I largely disagree with most kinds of animals btw, dogs and cats have been domesticated so it favours them to live with us, and brings mutual comfort to them and us, but yes you're right, keeping snakes, exotic animals that are not evolved to live in the UK etc is cruel and should be banned)

Guns however, have zero use - the only none lethal use for them is the human emotional enjoyment of target practice - if thats what you like, use an air rifle, still dangerous if used incorrectly, but a LOT less likely to be lethal & very difficult to go on a mass killing spree with.

Now you are adding lots of caveats to try and make your logic make sense.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Now you are adding lots of caveats to try and make your logic make sense.

I'm really not though - it boils down to a gun has 1 design use case only - they are designed to be weapons, cars and pets can be lethal, but so can an icy puddle.

However a gun enables horrific killings like the OP case, not likely as unfortunate side affects of other things in the world.

 

[Rroff]

I'm really not though - it boils down to a gun has 1 design use case only - they are designed to be weapons, cars and pets can be lethal, but so can an icy puddle.

However a gun enables horrific killings like the OP case, not likely as unfortunate side affects of other things in the world.

You can set a dangerous pet on someone - you can't set an icy puddle on someone... your logic just needs more and more caveats for it to make sense. If a gun is designed purely for sports shooting then killing someone with it is an unfortunate side effect as much as if someone clubbed someone to death with a baseball bat.

 

[Combat squirrel]

You can set a dangerous pet on someone - you can't set an icy puddle on someone... your logic just needs more and more caveats for it to make sense. If a gun is designed purely for sports shooting then killing someone with it is an unfortunate side effect as much as if someone clubbed someone to death with a baseball bat.

Oh christ, you're a smart man from what I understand - you must understand a gun is a designed weapon - again using mass killings as an example, an angry pet can indeed kill someone, but if its in a room of humans, even teenage kids, its going to get overpowered with a much higher chance of survival - a nutter walks in to a room with a gun.....look at history.

The only none lethal case of having a gun is target practice - it's fun that is.............but is it worth the side affects of mass killings much more easily happening globally or if you enjoy target practice - the middle ground is keep guns at target practice ranges and not let them out into the public.

Very logical, much sense.

 

[Rroff]

you must understand a gun is a designed weapon

If you reduce it back to the logic we use for everything else only when used as a weapon - there are a vast array of firearms designed, optimised and marketed for sports shooting.

I carry a folding knife of legal dimensions - it is not classified as a weapon, until it becomes one.

 

[Combat squirrel]

If you reduce it back to the logic we use for everything else only when used as a weapon - there are a vast array of firearms designed, optimised and marketed for sports shooting.

I carry a folding knife of legal dimensions - it is not classified as a weapon, until it becomes one.

Again, same point, a car is not designed as a weapon....until it becomes one.

However a knife is the next rung down on the ladder of a 'potential weapon' from a gun that is 100% a weapon, sure they maybe optimised for sports shooting but its still shooting a projectile at a target.

However even a knife has a huge list of other uses vs a gun - a knife enables you to cook, create things, a tool is a better description - but a gun has no other use other than shooting a projectile - you ever tried to slice bread with a gun ? Obvs not.

Its as simple as a gun is simply a weapon of war, designed to kill, there is no use for it otherwise, and as I've already said, it should be law globally to keep them locked up away from society at gun ranges - it would save millions per year from senseless killings.

Sure sure crazy folk will still find a way of killing people, but the amount of harm they could do is A LOT less - 1 guy with a knife pinned down by 30 people trying to save their life will at most maybe kill 1 or 2 people, not the literal majority of potential targets.

 

[Rroff]

Again, same point, a car is not designed as a weapon....until it becomes one.

However a knife is the next rung down on the ladder of a 'potential weapon' from a gun that is 100% a weapon, sure they maybe optimised for sports shooting but its still shooting a projectile at a target.

However even a knife has a huge list of other uses vs a gun - a knife enables you to cook, create things, a tool is a better description - but a gun has no other use other than shooting a projectile - you ever tried to slice bread with a gun ? Obvs not.

Its as simple as a gun is simply a weapon of war, designed to kill, there is no use for it otherwise, and as I've already said, it should be law globally to keep them locked up away from society at gun ranges - it would save millions per year from senseless killings.

Sure sure crazy folk will still find a way of killing people, but the amount of harm they could do is A LOT less - 1 guy with a knife pinned down by 30 people trying to save their life will at most maybe kill 1 or 2 people, not the literal majority of potential targets.

"there is no use for it otherwise" straight after mentioning it can be used for sports shooting...

There have been multiple knife attacks this year with multiple people killed and wounded in those attacks - you aren't likely to get 30 people trying to pin someone on a knife rampage down unless they have no escape - at best you might get 1-2 heroes who try to step in. In this respect I don't see the need for semi-automatic let alone automatic weapons in the hands of civilians as that can greatly increase the body count in a mass shooting.

 

[BUDFORCE]

Its as simple as a gun is simply a weapon of war, designed to kill, there is no use for it otherwise, and as I've already said, it should be law globally to keep them locked up away from society at gun ranges - it would save millions per year from senseless killings.

The statistics have proven that, in this country at least, that wouldn't change anything, because there basically isn't any death or injury caused by legally owned firearms.

You will literally achieve nothing, other than taking more liberty away from hundreds of thousands of law abiding people.

 

[Freakbro]

If you reduce it back to the logic we use for everything else only when used as a weapon - there are a vast array of firearms designed, optimised and marketed for sports shooting.

I carry a folding knife of legal dimensions - it is not classified as a weapon, until it becomes one.

Tbh Rroff, I think that makes our point more than yours. No one disputes any object can be used as a weapon, but with a gun that's its primary purpose, so compromises are made with other items. We regulate what size knife can be carried in public, its not perfect, but it balances the needs of knives with trying to protect against their misuse.

I can't see any argument that involves shooting for sport that isn't solved by having the weapons stored for use at the facility.

 

[Freakbro]

The statistics have proven that, in this country at least, that wouldn't change anything, because there basically isn't any death or injury caused by legally owned firearms.

The excessive suicide rate of the farming community would tend to disagree with that statement.

Edit : For clarity, I'm not advocating banning of firearms, just restricting their accessibility, especially in terms of sporting use as posted above. I'm not sure what can be done in respect to the farming community though.

 

[Rroff]

Tbh Rroff, I think that makes our point more than yours. No one disputes any object can be used as a weapon, but with a gun that's its primary purpose, so compromises are made with other items. We regulate what size knife can be carried in public, its not perfect, but it balances the needs of knives with trying to protect against their misuse.

I can't see any argument that involves shooting for sport that isn't solved by having the weapons stored for use at the facility.

I'm not against regulation - I'm heavily pro gun control, I object to people basically saying no one needs them so just ban them all when there are no negative sides to that for them personally but they would likely be the first ones complaining if someone took that approach to something they took part in. Additionally I believe we should only go so far in response to the actions of a small number of crazy people.

 

[killsta]

Tbh Rroff, I think that makes our point more than yours. No one disputes any object can be used as a weapon, but with a gun that's its primary purpose, so compromises are made with other items. We regulate what size knife can be carried in public, its not perfect, but it balances the needs of knives with trying to protect against their misuse.

I can't see any argument that involves shooting for sport that isn't solved by having the weapons stored for use at the facility.

Which facilities?

 

[Freakbro]

Which facilities?

There's shooting clubs around me, I assume they're nationwide.

 

[killsta]

There's shooting clubs around me, I assume they're nationwide.

Indeed, but my point was, which of them have storage? I'd wager, next to none!

Storing firearms at clubs is a non starter.

 

[Hotwired]

There's shooting clubs around me, I assume they're nationwide.

Usually middle of nowhere because shooting club, only open some days.

A club could just be some prepared land, some targets and a wooden hut.

Not the best place to leave a few hundred grand of firearms and ammunition.

 

[Freakbro]

Indeed, but my point was, which of them have storage? I'd wager, next to none!

Storing firearms at clubs is a non starter.

Usually middle of nowhere because shooting club, only open some days.

A club could just be some prepared land, some targets and a wooden hut.

Not the best place to leave a few hundred grand of firearms and ammunition.

I'll admit the current lack of infrastructure in this sector is a slight flaw in my idea

 

[Combat squirrel]

Indeed, but my point was, which of them have storage? I'd wager, next to none!

Storing firearms at clubs is a non starter.

So you're saying its literally impossible to use an existing room or build a room, put a heavily locked door on it and some fire arms cabinets in there?

I'd hardly say creating or converting a store room in a building is a 'none starter' its relatively very easy......

 

[Combat squirrel]

I'm not against regulation - I'm heavily pro gun control, I object to people basically saying no one needs them so just ban them all when there are no negative sides to that for them personally but they would likely be the first ones complaining if someone took that approach to something they took part in. Additionally I believe we should only go so far in response to the actions of a small number of crazy people.

Freakbro eloquently covered what I am trying to say - I never said ban them either, I said store them at firing ranges - you can still do exactly what you enjoy - but its kept there.

Similar to the fact you can own certain models of Ferrari but you can never take them home & Ferrari bring them to the track of your choice to drive them.

Further I'm not personally accusing you of not being able to have a gun license, but sadly there are people out there who have different motives - so it makes sense to highly control these weapons, yet not take away from the only other singular use for them - which is target practice, so logically it makes no difference to your use case, but it prevents harm - and as said above the stats for farming suicide says enough.

Further to this, on a personal note, and I won't say who.......at some point in our lives we will ALL face VERY difficult times, overwhelmingly terrible mental challenges, and in my experience, older males tend not to cope particularly well with facing their own mortality (stats speak for themselves)..........having guns easily accessible then becomes seriously risky not only to themselves but others, the stats in the usa are terrible and locally.

Anyone discussing things on here right now is probably of sound mind without real stressors in their life on them at the moment, but that WILL change, no one gets out alive and cancer treatments for example use mind altering drugs, which no one discusses (in addition to the mental stress of fighting cancer), people rarely understand this until they see a loved one go through it - guns have no place in society for those reasons also, let alone the random insane people who go on killing sprees.

Cancer treatments can turn the most trusted, loving, and respected men into really difficult and awful people to deal with, with enough stress & circumstances even the most respected individuals turn in to very real risks.

 

[Rroff]

Personally not a fan of keeping guns locked up in one place - it'll become a target for criminals, etc. and require sophisticated and expensive security to prevent those guns actually being more of a danger to society if criminals get hold of them in numbers - some people's interest in firearms is as a collector so that would require a fair bit of storage. A lot of the rifle clubs around me have closed or concerted to clays due to lack of interest meaning they struggle to survive.

Freakbro eloquently covered what I am trying to say - I never said ban them either,

While I replied to you my post was also meant generally, especially on the no one needs them basis for advocating various takes against them.

As to mental health I think you are vastly over exaggerating that problem, yes it does happen (I've mentioned 2 incidents I'm aware of on these forums before) - the vast majority of the tiny number of firearms related incidents around where I live are suicide with a small subset of those being murder-suicide (usually their family) but that is exceedingly rare* and in the case of suicide they'll usually still go through with it via another means. In this respect ensuring firearms owners are active members of a club to retain their licence can go a long way to helping address and recognise mental health problems.


* And unlike the US our approach to gun controls, and society, mean it is much less of a problem.