plan for collapse of Thames Water

darkgen said:
My sole point in this example is that, no matter whose fault it is, the customer always pays. If a water restriction is put in place, the suggestion seems to be to charge the customer more per unit
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We already have this with cheap-rate electricity... why is this such a problem?

darkgen said:
, thereby compensating the company and ensuring revenue is minimally impacted by any potential reduction in household consumption.
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So stop wating water and rob these companies of their filthy profit, then...

Richie said:
Around 20% of the treated water in E&W is lost due to leakage (circa 3bn litres/day).... I'd imagine that can be laid on the water company, right?
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If you can identify the cause of the leaks, then potentially...
One of the issues facing water companies is the development industry, knowingly slapping new offices, new homes and new roads on unsuitable ground, which impacts the pipes. Network Rail could also do everyone a favour by listening to what they're told and ceasing their track-tamping and pile-driving through the clearly marked mains. But then, I'd happily fix more leaks if local councils didn't object every time we raised works... and if OFWAT would actually allow that level of spend.
Leakage is a lot more complicated than you think...
 
ttaskmaster said:
We already have this with cheap-rate electricity... why is this such a problem?
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Is the argument now about seasonal pricing or when restrictions are applied? I'm not sure who's arguing for what now.

If it’s about seasonal pricing, then so be it. Present how unit costs are calculated and if the model shows that low-usage households do indeed save money compared to the current pricing structure, then great!

If it’s about elevated pricing during a water restriction period, present how unit costs are calculated and if the model shows that low-usage households are not charged more for using less, then great!

I suspect these calculations will be set up in such a way that, no matter what households do or don’t do with respect to usage or waste, actual savings will be minimal or non-existent."
ttaskmaster said:
So stop wating water and rob these companies of their filthy profit, then...
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This was part of my point. Households consume less during these periods but are charged the same due to increased unit costs. Ergo, companies retain that revenue and continue to profit.

This is all a bit of joke when bills are increasing by 30 - 50%. The electricity sector has at least shown significant savings are available with time of day tariffs. No such thing will ever exist for water (or maybe it will, just checked and Thames does eventually provide report usage by hourly chunks)..
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Ooops. Replied and hit post before I even formulated a reply!
 
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darkgen said:
Is the argument now about seasonal pricing or when restrictions are applied? I'm not sure who's arguing for what now.
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I thought it was both.

darkgen said:
I suspect these calculations will be set up in such a way that, no matter what households do or don’t do with respect to usage or waste, actual savings will be minimal or non-existent."
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In either case, it's not about saving you money. It's about reducing your water usage.

darkgen said:
This was part of my point. Households consume less during these periods but are charged the same due to increased unit costs. Ergo, companies retain that revenue and continue to profit.
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Usage cannot be determined unless you are metered. Right now only about 12% of TW's domestic customers are metered and even fewer commercial ones, while the rest are still on Rates, so increasing that is pretty much their only option. Otherwise you can use however much you want and still pay the same.

darkgen said:
This is all a bit of joke when bills are increasing by 30 - 50%. The electricity sector has at least shown significant savings are available with time of day tariffs. No such thing will ever exist for water (or maybe it will, just checked and Thames does eventually provide report usage by hourly chunks).
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The electricity sector is also allowed to cut you off. Water does not have that level of enforcement, so the incentive has to come from elsewhere.
 
ttaskmaster said:
Usage cannot be determined unless you are metered. Right now only about 12% of TW's domestic customers are metered and even fewer commercial ones, while the rest are still on Rates, so increasing that is pretty much their only option. Otherwise you can use however much you want and still pay the same.
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Wow, really! I stupidly thought it would be the other way around, as in approximately 12% still being non-metered. Presumably, the rollout continues?

I'm even more annoyed now knowing that! As a low-usage household, I could be, during these increased cost periods, effectively subsidising other potentially high-usage households who remain non-metered. Grrrrrrrrrrr.
 
darkgen said:
Wow, really! I stupidly thought it would be the other way around, as in approximately 12% still being non-metered. Presumably, the rollout continues?
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It does, and the opposition persists.

darkgen said:
As a low-usage household, I could be, during these increased cost periods, effectively subsidising other potentially high-usage households who remain non-metered.
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No 'could be' or 'potentially' about it - You absolutely are. There will be neighbours who run hoses 24/7, people who change their swimming pool water on a weekly basis, customers whose supplies have been tapped, numerous misconnections to skirt around building regulations... and that's without factoring in any within-curtilage leakage... all of which are absorbed by those who pay Rates.
 
darkgen said:
Thanks for depressing me even further in an already depressing thread. The only sensible course of action; go sit in the garden, under the parasol, and have a mid-week beer.
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If you're on Rates, why not get the paddling pool out? Let the wife water the garden and the kids jetwash the car, while you're at it....
 
I fully expect the ban to creep further into London and the SE over the coming weeks; not entirely unsurprising considering the lack of rain this year. Just further annoyances that so many households/business are predominately still on rates versus meters as highlighted by @ttaskmaster.
 
i must admit i am stunned so many are still on unmetered connections I only know a handful of people who have not swapped over now.... either voluntarily or because they moved house (my understanding is when you sell your house these days the meter is automatically swapped out.

hell i am on my 2nd meter as of a couple of months ago, having been on a basic meter for probably 25 years (at a guess) but that was replaced with a smart meter recently which tracks my hrly usage and should hopefully highlight any leaks as soon as they happen.
Personally i would ramp up everyone still unmetered even more to essentially force them over to a meter (unless there is some reason they cant go on to a meter)........ if only to stop stupid waste. its human nature unfortunately for many who have unlimited of anything to waste it.
 
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i must say either our unit cost has rocketed or our old meter must have been under reporting..... i dont think we have a leak as my hrly use does drop to zero in the early hrs of the morning (surely a leak would be a steady base usage 24/7?) and other than filling a paddling pool at the start of july no change in use AFAIK (put it this way i have not washed my car myself for 4 months! - jaguar did give it a wash during its service)

but my bills are (bizarrely it seems randomly if 1/4ly or every other month!)

May 2024 £80.09
August 2024 £61.91
December 2024 £103.12
February 2025 £63.23

(then our old meter got swapped out with a new smart meter)

June 2025 £191.87
and just had 1st August bill £186.54

maybe I am missing something but that is a massive jump!. (not sure why i didnt get a bill for April - or if i did its not on my account... i assumed that was why my June bill was so high and was skipped due to meter fitting but then so is my august one v high!.
 
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bigmike20vt said:
i must say either our unit cost has rocketed or our old meter must have been under reporting..... i dont think we have a leak as my hrly use does drop to zero in the early hrs of the morning (surely a leak would be a steady base usage 24/7?) and other than filling a paddling pool at the start of july no change in use AFAIK (put it this way i have not washed my car myself for 4 months! - jaguar did give it a wash during its service)

but my bills are (bizarrely it seems randomly if 1/4ly or every other month!)

May 2024 £80.09
August 2024 £61.91
December 2024 £103.12
February 2025 £63.23

(then our old meter got swapped out with a new smart meter)

June 2025 £191.87
and just had 1st August bill £186.54

maybe I am missing something but that is a massive jump!. (not sure why i didnt get a bill for April - or if i did its not on my account... i assumed that was why my June bill was so high and was skipped due to meter fitting but then so is my august one v high!.
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Then you are going to love surge pricing.
 
@bigmike20vt
Are you with Thames? You should be able to check hourly usage on their website. I'll assume other water providers provide the same level of detail for customers with smart meters.

e: just reread and you have. Perhaps you have a high usage household? I suspect I'm low, as average daily usage is around ~200litres. Pay 27 sheets by direct debit.
 
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darkgen said:
@bigmike20vt
Are you with Thames? You should be able to check hourly usage on their website. I'll assume other water providers provide the same level of detail for customers with smart meters.

e: just reread and you have. Perhaps you have a high usage household? I suspect I'm low, as average daily usage is around ~200litres. Pay 27 sheets by direct debit.
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am with Anglian water, our daily household average is 426 litres for June (12769l for the month) which was around 1000 litres higher than our usual average (makes sense given the heat)
 
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bigmike20vt said:
am with Anglian water, our daily household average is 426 litres for June (12769l for the month) which was around 1000 litres higher than our usual average
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I do not really understand regional water pricing at all. By that measure, and in comparison with Thames, I'd expect your bills to be around ~60 sheets per month. My June usage was 6123l.

Do Anglican provide water and waste combined or is that separately calculated and charged etc?
 
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