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Fs2024 in full VR mode. Nice.
Out of interest, what does your MEL allow you to dispatch without in terms of tank pumps?
Air India Crash
- Thread starter Grim5
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Fs2024 in full VR mode. Nice.
Out of interest, what does your MEL allow you to dispatch without in terms of tank pumps?
Essentially both main tanks have 2 pumps (fwd and aft) - you can operate without 1 but there is a minimum amount of fuel in the tank not to be used to ensure the suction feed line never becomes uncovered, particularly with pitch attitudes associated with takeoff. There are some other bits about both fwd pumps being serviceable if an aft one is not or vice versa.
The center tank has two pumps (left and right), essentially both can be out but you can't use the fuel in that tank.
All the fuel lines feed into a fuel manifold prior to the engines, the center tank pumps have a higher output pressure that the 2 main tanks so that center tank fuel is used first. Obviously if neither center tank pump is working the main tank pumps will feed onto the fuel manifold at a higher pressure. I guess you know this bit already.
There are various notes about changes to the performance calculations under different circumstances (center tank is empty or contains fuel etc). And quite a lot about the maintenance actions to isolate the various pumps etc and ensure other systems or indicators are working correctly
That's my understanding of it anyway.
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Associate
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Lots of experience on various (unique) platforms but I’m not experienced on 73 or 78 so I’m not going to assume how they work as aircraft systems can be so particular - your explanation was perfect.
Associate
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Given the timings involved, including the length of time for the engines to wind down, I’d say it’s more likely to be closer to rotate speed, when the leave the runway and the Weight on Wheels switches (or 787 equivalent) flip the aircraft from ground to air mode.
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Maybe it was the FADEC, has anyone mentioned the FADEC?
I saw a video earlier suggesting a cover up by Air India.
I saw a video earlier suggesting a cover up by Air India.
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Quite a few comments discussing it from post #575 onwards.
Don’t even..
I saw a video suggesting it was aliens.
Caporegime
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It will take months but the longer it goes on the more it points towards pilot error. They would know quite quickly if there is an issue with the planes that requires grounding.
What, like the 737 Max?
Quite the opposite I would say. Pilot error will quickly show up as an inappropriate action recorded in the FDM. Trawling through millions of lines of code to replicate a 1 in a million software fault will take quite some time. As will identifying a million to one mechanical failure.
Anyway, it's too early for the preliminary report yet.
Caporegime
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I don't think Boeing would make the same mistake twice but you never know. Everyone must be watching them like a hawk after what happened.
I would say from the outside Air India pilots being suspended and the pilots management being sacked is a far bigger indicator of what is going on.
Pilots grounded after Air India flight struggles during takeoff after AI171 crash
Pilots’ post-flight report failed to mention critical stall and ‘don’t sink’ warnings, official says
www.independent.co.uk
Air India slammed for 'repeated violations' as three officials sacked
AIR India has been slammed for “repeated violations” with three officials sacked over “systemic failures” following the tragic crash. Cracks within the airline have started …
www.thesun.co.uk
I understand this would be par for the course with investigators coming in but it doesn't paint a good picture.
I don't think Boeing would make the same mistake twice but you never know. Everyone must be watching them like a hawk after what happened.
I would say from the outside Air India pilots being suspended and the pilots management being sacked is a far bigger indicator of what is going on.
Pilots grounded after Air India flight struggles during takeoff after AI171 crash
Pilots’ post-flight report failed to mention critical stall and ‘don’t sink’ warnings, official says
Air India slammed for 'repeated violations' as three officials sacked
AIR India has been slammed for “repeated violations” with three officials sacked over “systemic failures” following the tragic crash. Cracks within the airline have started …
I understand this would be par for the course with investigators coming in but it doesn't paint a good picture.
There could be cultural element to that, where the reality goes out the window and it's whatever the boss tells you.. all the way up. Likely they're the scapegoats.
Associate
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I don't think Boeing would make the same mistake twice but you never know. Everyone must be watching them like a hawk after what happened.
I would say from the outside Air India pilots being suspended and the pilots management being sacked is a far bigger indicator of what is going on.
Pilots grounded after Air India flight struggles during takeoff after AI171 crash
Pilots’ post-flight report failed to mention critical stall and ‘don’t sink’ warnings, official says
Air India slammed for 'repeated violations' as three officials sacked
AIR India has been slammed for “repeated violations” with three officials sacked over “systemic failures” following the tragic crash. Cracks within the airline have started …
I understand this would be par for the course with investigators coming in but it doesn't paint a good picture.
We’re also still waiting on a final report for this one at the end of 2021 where the pilot claimed to simply be following the Flight Director while the aircraft was barely climbing away from the ground:
I’m struggling to see a ‘pilot error’ pathway that can account for many of the things we’ve seen on AI171 though, I have to admit.
The longer it goes on the more it points to being something totally obscure and not obvious from FDR.
It'll probably be a combination of factors in the end, it usually is.
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I don't think Boeing would make the same mistake twice but you never know. Everyone must be watching them like a hawk after what happened.
I would say from the outside Air India pilots being suspended and the pilots management being sacked is a far bigger indicator of what is going on.
Pilots grounded after Air India flight struggles during takeoff after AI171 crash
Pilots’ post-flight report failed to mention critical stall and ‘don’t sink’ warnings, official says
Air India slammed for 'repeated violations' as three officials sacked
AIR India has been slammed for “repeated violations” with three officials sacked over “systemic failures” following the tragic crash. Cracks within the airline have started …
I understand this would be par for the course with investigators coming in but it doesn't paint a good picture.
I'm afraid those articles are probably just an example of the complete lack of any understanding of aviation that your average journalist has.
Regarding the Independent article:
There's not a lot of details about exactly what happened but I'd just make a few points.
It's entirely normal for pilots to be removed from flight operations whilst an investigation is conducted - it's happened to me in the past. Since the outcome of the investigation is not known at the beginning it's entirely possible they did nothing wrong. You can't infer from the fact an investigation was conducted that anything was done incorrectly (although it may have been).
From the article they took off in the vicinity of thunderstorms. The event sounds like windshear due to those storms although the article gives no clue as to what actually happened. If you are correctly performing a windshear escape maneuver you can fly all the way up to intermittent stick shaker (and should if required)
A quote from the article
"Notably, the initial flight report only cited “stick shaker due to turbulence”, omitting the more serious alerts, the report said. A deeper review of the flight data recorder later revealed that a stall warning and GPWS “don’t sink” caution had also occurred – findings that emerged amid heightened DGCA scrutiny following the AI171 crash."
A stick shaker is a stall warning - it's the only stall warning you'll get on a B777. An EGPWS (The B777 is very unlikely to have the simpler GPWS system) 'Don't sink' aural annunciation refers to height loss after takeoff and is completely in line with the crew experiencing severe windshear after takeoff. It's also not a particularly serious alert, being classified as a caution rather than a warning. Severe windshear is terrifying and it's entirely possible the crew simply missed it. Now you could possible criticise the crews decision to take off in the first place but I can assure you, operating around thunderstorms is tricky at the best of times, or it's possible they did in fact somehow stall the aircraft after takeoff but since the article is so light on details it's largely meaningless.
And since the article is largely meaningless, to me at least, it's impossible to infer any kind of company cultural or corporate failings. Or any link whatsoever to the recent crash.
Regarding the Sun article:
Well, first of all, it's the Sun.
I'm not sure if the flight time limit of 10 hours is correct, certainly you can fly for much longer than that. However, breaching flight time limitations is not uncommon and I can believe Air India may well have done this (and may well do it regularly). This does speak to more corporate failings. But I don't really know either way. And either way, breaching FTLs is unlikely to have caused the recent crash. (Although it may be a factor - I don't know). Who would have thought the Sun could provide a more useful article (if only marginally) than the Independent.
In short - in the absence of any relevant information, these to articles seem to be more about driving site traffic than offering any real insight to the crash.
Your link the the Emirate B777 was from my understanding at least (I haven't read the report in detail but I know people who are closer to the event), a quite astonishing pilot error. They appear to have set zero feet in the MCP (Autopilot) control panel and then blindly followed the flight directors. Completely oblivious to the fact the most of the Dubai skyline was above them. I know the report says otherwise (4000') but from my understanding that's not correct.
I should point out that I haven't haven't kept abreast of any recent developments but that was my understanding from speaking to people at the time.
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I’d forgotten about it till the links above were posted, and a quick google suggests the final report has not been released - assuming it ever will be. It does boggle the mind how simply ‘flying the plane’ seemed to be an afterthought.