A man cautioned for carrying a bladed trowel in public

[ttaskmaster]

Yes, fantasise that I'll be walking down the street with a large dagger on a belt to get (correctly) accused of breaking knife law, (correctly) arrested, and taken to a police station to decide how I want to argue my position.

Similar does not mean the very same.
Plenty of people who either are, or like to think they are, smart and well informed still get caught out in various legal situations.

It's your responsibility to know the law before you prat about with controlled items. Saying you can't be bothered to know it because you reckon the police make it up, well, good luck with that.

Again not what I said, but you're clearly not able to coinsider opinions that differ from your own.

 

[Hotwired]

Similar does not mean the very same.
Plenty of people who either are, or like to think they are, smart and well informed still get caught out in various legal situations.

Again not what I said, but you're clearly not able to coinsider opinions that differ from your own.

Me saying I know my legality confuses you. I've yet to see any claim that you bother to check yours. I believe from evidence so far that you are happy to defend your ignorance and the position of other ignorant people.

I'll bet you're shedding a tear for the americans constantly getting caught in turks and caicos with live ammunition.

Here's the law, these are controlled items. Be an adult. You screw up, well, a caution really is the lowest possible penalty you could have got for accepting that you broke the law.

 

[Haggisman]

Here's the law, these are controlled items. Be an adult. You screw up, well, a caution really is the lowest possible penalty you could have got for accepting that you broke the law.

Quite - it's all well and good having the romanticised view of the quintessential English bobby, tipping his hat to the old ladies on their way down to bingo and giving the local rapscallions a clip round the ear for knocking old Mr Davis' door and running away (again), who is on first name terms with everyone in the village and knows that Sam from no. 12 goes down to his allotment every Saturday morning, but is a bit slow and sometimes forgets to put his tools away properly.

Meanwhile, in the real world, police resources are stretched thinner than Kate Moss in that Family Guy episode, they don't know that Mr Allotment guy with knife on his belt isn't actually Mr Bike Thief guy with knife on his belt pretending to be Mr Allotment guy.

The police are damned if they do, damned if they don't, they get criticised for not being tough enough on crimes, and then by the same people for being too tough.

It would be great if there were enough officers to deal with all crimes appropriately, but how many people are going to be happy with the increase in taxes required to provide that?

 

[Ice Tea]

I see that koolpc has been suspended?

 

[Mr Badger]

I see that koolpc has been suspended?

Probably for his terrible "hoe" joke.

Unless he's been flashing his tool?

 

[ttaskmaster]

Me saying I know my legality confuses you. I've yet to see any claim that you bother to check yours.

Because it's not about the legality, it's about proportional response.
Plenty of other transgressors (minor and not so minor) have been let go by officers who needed only to point out the technicalities of the law. They didn't need to caution anyone, arrest anyone or do anything more than point out what they'd done wrong.
This guy had done nothing especially bad, clearly had no intent to do anything worse and would have responded very positively to a mere kind word in his shell-like.

I believe from evidence so far that you are happy to defend your ignorance and the position of other ignorant people.

Wrong on both counts. I'm more concerned with the inconsistency of enforcement.
If this gardener deserves to get the full force of the law, then this has to be the same for everyone, which it clearly isn't.

I'll bet you're shedding a tear for the americans constantly getting caught in turks and caicos with live ammunition.

I'll take that bet.....

Here's the law, these are controlled items. Be an adult. You screw up, well, a caution really is the lowest possible penalty you could have got for accepting that you broke the law.

And yet plenty of people who are knowingly being silly have gotten nothing worse than a harsh word and a slap on the wrist, yet this gardener is somehow considered worthy of a full armed response and several hours sitting around waiting anxiously, before being coerced into waiving his legal advice...

Meanwhile, in the real world, police resources are stretched thinner than Kate Moss in that Family Guy episode, they don't know that Mr Allotment guy with knife on his belt isn't actually Mr Bike Thief guy with knife on his belt pretending to be Mr Allotment guy.

That would have become pretty apparent once they laid eyes on him.

The police are damned if they do, damned if they don't, they get criticised for not being tough enough on crimes, and then by the same people for being too tough.

Because they keep muddling up their dos and don'ts. The response needs to be proportional.
For example, Police arrested a 12 year old kid for having a water pistol last year. Good thing that little scrote was taken off the streets before he could wet someone, eh!
By the same token, we've had several shootings in the UK, where the perpetrator was known to the Police as being problematic and should already have had their firearms seized long before they committed the deadly offences.

It would be great if there were enough officers to deal with all crimes appropriately, but how many people are going to be happy with the increase in taxes required to provide that?

It'd be realtively easy to tidy up some other public funds and free up a good few billion to cover such things, no tax increases even required.

 

[Hotwired]

Because it's not about the legality, it's about proportional response.
Plenty of other transgressors (minor and not so minor) have been let go by officers who needed only to point out the technicalities of the law. They didn't need to caution anyone, arrest anyone or do anything more than point out what they'd done wrong.
This guy had done nothing especially bad, clearly had no intent to do anything worse and would have responded very positively to a mere kind word in his shell-like.

He got a caution instead of being put in the queue for the courts, how is that not the police using discretion and being proportional.

This guy could be in the courts and looking at a punishment of a fine or a low grade community order (according to sentencing guidelines) plus a public record. He's made his caution a permanent public record on his own.

What's there to say about peoples stories. Offer them to the police when you're arrested for possession and tell them that you heard this other person got let off scott free and you want that.

Or, and this is very low resource and requires no specially benevolent or incompetent police, you make sure you know the law about controlled items you use and cannot be charged in the first place.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Because it's not about the legality, it's about proportional response.
Plenty of other transgressors (minor and not so minor) have been let go by officers who needed only to point out the technicalities of the law. They didn't need to caution anyone, arrest anyone or do anything more than point out what they'd done wrong.
This guy had done nothing especially bad, clearly had no intent to do anything worse and would have responded very positively to a mere kind word in his shell-like.

because instead of taking a telling off and going back in his house he decided to argue about it.
What a first class prat "I WILL FIGHT FOR MY RIGHT"..
He wanted a Solicitor and when he couldn't get one decided 'go on then I'll have a caution', it was originally a smacked hand outside his house.
He goes to the papers and the clickbait fools you.

 

[labbby]

because instead of taking a telling off and going back in his house he decided to argue about it.

Oldest law the plod have is the 'Failing the attitude test act 1829'

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Oldest law the plod have is the 'Failing the attitude test act 1829'

Me and the Mrs watch loads of Cop programmes like Traffic Cops, Motorway Cops, Night Coppers etc and the amount of idiots who could walk away but end up being taken to the station is astounding.

 

[Werewolf]

Oldest law the plod have is the 'Failing the attitude test act 1829'

Very much.

The police don't like wasting their time for minor stuff that they've got the option of just giving "words of advice" for and getting on their way withing 15 minutes.
If you have an attitude with them and refuse to admit you broke the law, even if inadvertently, then they no longer have much choice about just giving an informal warning as you've already demonstrated you don't understand or care about what you've done.

Me and the Mrs watch loads of Cop programmes like Traffic Cops, Motorway Cops, Night Coppers etc and the amount of idiots who could walk away but end up being taken to the station is astounding.

Yup

And the truly stupid thing is, if you fail the attitude test for a minor thing when driving the police have the option to basically hold onto you and go over the vehicle for any defects they can find, and they will do it if you're obnoxious enough and they don't have anything better to do at that moment. I remember an experienced traffic cop saying that more than once he'd stopped someone for something minor but after the attitude test was failed and he started looking at the vehicle a bit more closely he found enough to require the vehicle be removed by tow truck - apparently the experienced traffic cops, especially those that work with VOSA really know their stuff (and will if it's a commercial vehicle not hesitate to call in the specialists from DVSA if they're not sure about something).



For the record, I would call that thing a Knife, not a trowel given it's much more knife shaped, with a sharp edge than a trowel.
In addition from my understanding in the UK anything with a sharp blade for cutting is by default a "knife", as there is no one style of "knife" that can really be legally defined to cover everything that has a blade, so it's all lumped together for the basic law, with exceptions for specific stuff as needed.
IIRC Even normal trowels can be lumped under the "think 25" stuff for purchasing, and I've got various things for pulling/cutting weeds that don't look at all like a knife but have sharp blades, I know not to carry them around openly unless I'm using them in the garden.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

And the truly stupid thing is, if you fail the attitude test for a minor thing when driving the police have the option to basically hold onto you and go over the vehicle for any defects they can find, and they will do it if you're obnoxious enough and they don't have anything better to do at that moment. I remember an experienced traffic cop saying that more than once he'd stopped someone for something minor but after the attitude test was failed and he started looking at the vehicle a bit more closely he found enough to require the vehicle be removed by tow truck - apparently the experienced traffic cops, especially those that work with VOSA really know their stuff (and will if it's a commercial vehicle not hesitate to call in the specialists from DVSA if they're not sure about something).

Again a recurring theme on these Cop series.
They see a car going a bit fast, pull them over for a talk, fail the attitude test and next thing the car is being towed away usually because they've been tested for drugs or the car is falling apart or no license/insurance/tax etc.
It's unbelievable how many fail for drugs now and unbelievable how many don't actually take them
Also the amount of young men who have taken up Baseball is phenomenal

 

[ttaskmaster]

He got a caution instead of being put in the queue for the courts, how is that not the police using discretion and being proportional.

He was a gardener, gardening with gardening tools. He had a pretty legitimate 'good reason' for carrying such things.
Other transgressors, such as those with a big kitchen knife down their waistband and without any such 'good reason' get away scot-free. Very disproportionate.

because instead of taking a telling off and going back in his house he decided to argue about it.

That's not the way it's being reported, and I've not seen any articles that assert he showed such an attitude during the incident.
I'm not a big fan of journalists, but they do take every opportunity to make fools of people who've been right idiots. But rather than demonising this guy, as they would if he had been a complete **** about it, they're also taking the stance that this was OTT on the Police response.

 

[Werewolf]

He was a gardener, gardening with gardening tools. He had a pretty legitimate 'good reason' for carrying such things.
Other transgressors, such as those with a big kitchen knife down their waistband and without any such 'good reason' get away scot-free. Very disproportionate.


That's not the way it's being reported, and I've not seen any articles that assert he showed such an attitude during the incident.
I'm not a big fan of journalists, but they do take every opportunity to make fools of people who've been right idiots. But rather than demonising this guy, as they would if he had been a complete **** about it, they're also taking the stance that this was OTT on the Police response.

Armed police were sent to challenge Samuel Rowe as he walked home from his allotment in Chorlton, Manchester, carrying the tool, a peeling knife and a sickle.

The police didn't know why he was carrying them, and for someone to have called the police means that they were visible and alarmed the person.

The law is you can carry them if you've got a good reason, but carry them responsibly and IIRC that has long been defined after court cases as being in such a manner to not cause alarm, and securely.
If he'd had them in a bag it's very unlikely anyone would even have noticed him carrying them, but by the sounds of it he had a bladed "trowel" in a hip sheave that made it look even more like some sort of combat/hunting knife than it looks out of it.

The truly stupid thing is, by the looks of it if the picture in the BBC article is representative of what he was wearing and carrying, he had a bag he could have pot it in, but instead carried it around like Indiana Jones or Rambo on his hip where the only conclusion most "reasonable" people would have is that it was a large knife and given the hysteria about knife crime that is going to get calls to the police.

 

[ttaskmaster]

The law is you can carry them if you've got a good reason, but carry them responsibly and IIRC that has long been defined after court cases as being in such a manner to not cause alarm, and securely.

So who was "alarmed" by that 13 year old kid carrying a water pistol?

but by the sounds of it he had a bladed "trowel" in a hip sheave that made it look even more like some sort of combat/hunting knife than it looks out of it.

Based on the pictures shown, depicting other things on his belt, the whole thing just looks like some sort of tool belt. Add to that him carrying the sickle and a sheaf of hedging, it seems pretty obvious he's a gardener.
I can't comment much on the blue polo shirt and brown corduroys, but I imagine knife-wielding gang types don't exactly dress like that...

but instead carried it around like Indiana Jones or Rambo on his hip

When you put it like that, yeah he sounds like a maniac.... but when you consider that most of the pics on Gardeners World and other such sites also show them carrying these same trowel things on their belts, likening him to Alan Titchmarsh and Monty Don kinda robs the narrative of the sensationalism.

"Yeah, the psycho was strutting around tooled up like Percy Thrower, he was!!"...

where the only conclusion most "reasonable" people would have is that it was a large knife and given the hysteria about knife crime that is going to get calls to the police.

I'd have hoped most "reasonable" people would have seen a middle-aged bloke with no taste in clothes doing a bit of gardening.
But this hysteria is part of the problem - Even if you're 100% legal in everything you do, hysteria-driven people still want to **** up your day...