Gamers, What's Your Audio Set Up?
- Thread starter Random Guy Esq.
- Start date
It's no doubt good for what it does, but I will cast doubt on it dumping all over positional audio in games like the ones mentioned whereby audio directing from the developer's POV has been well thought out.
There is no way I will ever go back to gaming audio cards and suchlike having stepped up through into hifi gaming with just 2 channels and experienced it properly.
There is no way I will ever go back to gaming audio cards and suchlike having stepped up through into hifi gaming with just 2 channels and experienced it properly.
Soldato
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I'm just using a AVR, stereo speakers and subwoofer, I could go 4.1 if I wanted, using a DSP like DSU
Bumped into a very interesting Youtube video tonight via Resetera.
TLDR; Essentially the Windows audio stack (plus some other bits) introduce significant higher latency on Windows gaming.
My immediate thought was; What about Linux? Or even console? And it turns out a few in the comments asked the same question including one responder referencing their own testing on Pipewire (most modern Linux distros use this) of 25ms for a USB DAC. Interestingly that does correlate to a to completely unrelated small Youtuber's video on PS5 audio, where they measured a USB DAC at 24ms. Given the PS5 OS is based on FreeBSD; another Unix-like OS it's quite believable that it would measure closer to Linux than Windows (which may also mean Xbox consoles likely measure badly as well). Some of this to be taken with a pinch of salt and needs more investigation from a more reputable source. However I do agree with a few of the comments that this video should blow-up. And another reason why Linux needs to be the OS of choice moving forward...even it we aren't all rhythm game and esport pro-players.
TLDR; Essentially the Windows audio stack (plus some other bits) introduce significant higher latency on Windows gaming.
My immediate thought was; What about Linux? Or even console? And it turns out a few in the comments asked the same question including one responder referencing their own testing on Pipewire (most modern Linux distros use this) of 25ms for a USB DAC. Interestingly that does correlate to a to completely unrelated small Youtuber's video on PS5 audio, where they measured a USB DAC at 24ms. Given the PS5 OS is based on FreeBSD; another Unix-like OS it's quite believable that it would measure closer to Linux than Windows (which may also mean Xbox consoles likely measure badly as well). Some of this to be taken with a pinch of salt and needs more investigation from a more reputable source. However I do agree with a few of the comments that this video should blow-up. And another reason why Linux needs to be the OS of choice moving forward...even it we aren't all rhythm game and esport pro-players.
If a game has a proper HRTF implementation or other 3D audio implementation that is well done then it can be better than SBX Pro VSS - but in most cases it isn't.
EDIT: As for turning your nose up at gaming audio cards - circuitry wise the AE-5 is essentially identical to most external DACs with a reasonably high end ESS Sabre DAC and LM4562 opamps with Xamp bi-amp headphone output, with a 122dB SNR and 0.00032% THD+N it probably beats the **** out of a lot of the external DACs you've been talking about recently for pure sound fidelity, though it wouldn't be my go to for musicality as the combination of ESS DAC and LM4562 makes for a fairly bright and clinical sound.
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So it doesn't beat any of the amps mentioned thus far then given that trait^ Especially anything with a modern AKM/R2R board in it. I suspect it matches up to the DX5 II (and loses on outright driving power), a DAC that I disliked the sound of because it didn't meet my taste in what sounds nice.
Aside from the fact that it still requires Soundblaster drivers which then comes with its own issues depending on individual system configs (see above about reports of driver problems spanning years people have been posting about).
So yeah no thanks, USB DAC/amp always.
It's the early hours and in bed so just watched this, quite interesting indeed and kind of makes you wonder what people have been doing all these years as the video alludes to, spending thousands on visual enhancements to latency but with no fix for the near 100ms of game audio latency on the biggest gaming platform since metrics were recorded from 2021 onwards:
Ironically Windows since 10 has supported WASAPI Exclusive, MS's native version of what ASIO does which you can use with any music player that supports ASIO, just select WASAPI from output settings in the player, the only thing it doesn't do is bitstream DSD as DSD, it converts to PCM from my testing the other day. So technically every single DAC could benefit if Microsoft enabled the API to tap into WASAPI Exclusive (or Shared too if that mode offers low latency) for DirectX games leading to single digit ms audio latency that matches our existing peripherals and displays.
Another observation is that some games in their audio settings screens give you the option to choose "Default sound driver" (DirectSound) Or your USB connected DAC, is there a measurable latency difference between "Default sound driver" and picking the USB DAC directly here instead. Our ears won't be able to tell either apart but an LDAT could measure any difference. I think the video's test needs repeating with WASAPI being explored too, and since WASAPI is a Microsoft creation, they could implement it into DirectX with an update I suppose.
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Well we are talking gaming here, clean clinical sound is an advantage.
The Creative drivers can be a pain but I've not had too much trouble with them personally but that is aside from the point - for gaming audio it takes a dump on a lot of external solutions unless the game has a good 3D sound implementation which most don't.
I'd argue that greater stereo imaging and soundstage is more of an advantage to gaming vs a clean and clinical signature, sound colouration is a musical feature that will dictate how flat or warm etc music sounds, this does not matter for games as game audio will always dynamically change in realtime depending on scene activity. Soundstage and imaging will always be consistent regardless of the type of audio it is whether music, games, video etc.
It's the reason why people generally prefer wide staging/imaging headphones for gaming because placement of game sounds is more holographic and it's easier to pinpoint exact position of stuff in the game, no reason to not have those traits at the very start of the chain.
It's the reason why people generally prefer wide staging/imaging headphones for gaming because placement of game sounds is more holographic and it's easier to pinpoint exact position of stuff in the game, no reason to not have those traits at the very start of the chain.
Uh that is what SBX Pro VSS provides - a substantial increase in perceived imaging and soundstage, especially if the game is utilising 7.1 sound... and having a clean sound helps to keep things from becoming congested when a lot is going on.
There's not been congested sound on a USB DAC in games for as far as I have been using USB DACs, it's simply not an issue, perhaps a hypothetical one but not an actual one. most of us here have USB DACs and game with them and play some of the busiest most congested shooters out there, nobody has ever complained about such an issue.
If some of them can be named I will install them and give it a shot as clearly I've not played those ones. How much more congested can it get than a server full of explosions in any given Battlefield game, yet the audio still remains pin point sharp. I suspect that those games with said issue are just bad games in the first place for audio direction.
I think PC gaming being so closely tied to Microsoft is the major negative which people tend to ignore, or not understand. And personally I just trust companies like Valve, Nintendo, or Sony more. When Sarah Bond did her 'we're not pulling out of Xbox consoles, honest, all aboard the Windows 11 train' announcement I'd argue this is precisely the sort of thing they should be improving with the renewed focus on Windows 11/future. But I suspect they'll be more interested in trying to further embed Game Pass into Windows, or increase revenue hooks rather than focus on the important stuff. Linux is probably the better solution, but still has major hurdles to overcome as a gaming platform. And nearly all Linux gaming is done via compatibility layers like Proton which will introduce their own latency. So all adds up to something that probably can't be easily fixed.
I thought the video covered the topic quite well though. Unfortunately people tend not to care about audio as much which is why I suspect this problem has gone so undocumented over the years. Just simple things like the longstanding PS4/5 USB 50%/low volume bug that plagued the console for years and virtually no-one covered in any meaningful way.
Regarding SBX (I know this is slightly different from SBX Pro) when I did use it I found there was a slight degradation in audio quality, however it was very good on certain games at simplifying the direction of enemies. I've seen a few players for years in the COD MP community swear by devices that decode Dolby Digital into VSS. I think some of that is weaknesses in that game's audio engine, but a bit like 3D audio there will be an element of subjectivity as to what people prefer. These days like yourself tend to think good stereo is the better all around solution and use 3D where it's available. Although I suppose it doesn't costs huge amounts if you want to add hardware VSS to your audio chain in some way.
There can be a compromise of audio quality if you use enhancements i.e. the setting which exaggerates the surround effect - I have those disabled, at least with pro there is no degradation of audio quality if using straight VSS.
A lot of it is weakness of the game's audio engine - only a tiny number of games implement any kind of proper 3D audio/HRTF and that will be superior if done properly.
With the Creative DAC/AMPs I would turn all the enhancements off and just have surround on. I hated Crystalizer, Smart Volume off etc. But even then it would still 'push' the sound out. I think I always had a preference for Creative's SBX solution versus Dolby Headphones etc. becuase that degradation was minimal.
Think I mentioned it before but I just loathe all forms of virtualisation in audio in games and just prefer direct channels out, all processing off and just leverage what the actual hardware does in the chain for positioning (DAC>Amp>Headphones/Speakers). That was the game changer the first time I got a USB DAC and realised that gaming orientated audio hardware was at the time a bit overrated.
Like Reshade plugins for game visuals, I just never found a form of audio virtualisation that sounded natural/convincing enough to be enjoyable for me. I guess it's easy enough to get used to and then become a fan of over a period of time, but the underlying principle still remains. This of course includes processing like Dolby Headphones etc, but that's just me.
Like Reshade plugins for game visuals, I just never found a form of audio virtualisation that sounded natural/convincing enough to be enjoyable for me. I guess it's easy enough to get used to and then become a fan of over a period of time, but the underlying principle still remains. This of course includes processing like Dolby Headphones etc, but that's just me.
Finally a review of the new ZH3, and note what he shows at this timestamp:
That's what we were talking about before about the initial audio start delay.
It does not look like Fosi provides a USB DAC driver so on Windows the delay will be there too unlike with Eversolo/FiiO that has a driver control panel to turn on streaming or always has streaming on.
A deal breaker really, shame as would have liked to try the ZH3 out otherwise.
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Caporegime
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"End game for 99% of people audiophile."
That's a serious recommendation, and white one looks the best.
p.s. his unit runs cool too!
That's a serious recommendation, and white one looks the best.
p.s. his unit runs cool too!
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I want the blue pill!
It does look eerily similar. I do remember when I tested the Fosi K7 in UAC 1 mode it didn't do the small delayed wake but I should check again.
I also saw your comments on the Youtube video. As a Mac user it's interesting he didn't have issues with the DX5 II, Xduoo TA-32 or Merlin. I don't know if that speaks more to Mac OS although from what I can see Mac OS does auto-switching with bitrates (i.e. switching to lossless). But Topping and Xduoo do have USB Drivers for Windows. The Merlin seems to be in right state looking at the thread over at Head-Fi, which doesn't seem to have the basic driver to even adjust the bitrate in Windows and the rep from Apos looks a bit lost. So surprised that's not having the same issue.