Poll: AmorIn or AmorOut?

[Martini1991]

I cant see when/how things get better for Utd, their next 3 league games are an in form Sunderland, Liverpool and Brighton. Its actually a realistic possibility that Utd could be in the relegation zone at the start of November.

Or Man UTD get 6 points and keep the rollercoaster going

 

[sigma]

Or Man UTD get 6 points and keep the rollercoaster going

Might as well, the season is written off already (lol) as long as they don't get relegated they can wait to see/plan for which managers are available at the end of the season.

However, they are definitely not getting 6 points from the next two matches.

 

[spudbynight]

Focusing on absolute expenditure is too simple an analysis for a complex problem.

Over the course of a DECADE, if a company is failing and the owners keep hiring crap managers and workers, is it the workers and managers fault?

Nobody is saying they haven't spent any money (investment in the stadium and structure aside). Everyone is saying they've WASTED BILLIONS. When will people finally understand this?

How many of the managers were regarded as "crap" before they were hired?

They were all in demand before they were appointed and the consensus among the fans was pretty positive each time.

I know they have wasted money, the thing is the club keeps on doing this under pressure from the fans. Man Utd are a club in the doldrums. They keep on trying to appease a fanbase who expect marquee signings.

For years I have been saying the same thing. Man Utd cannot attract marquee signings any longer unless those players are motivated by money rather than football. The fans still expect the big names so the club keeps on spunking loads of cash of mercenaries who frankly don't have the motivation. The club actually appointed a great manager after Fergie in Moyes but he wasn't given the time he needed. Since then it has been attempted quick fix after quick fix.

The Glazers are the owners of the club. They don't run it. As owners they have made money available time and time again which is all that should be expected of them. One could make an argument they should have changed CEOs but the arrival of Ratcliffe doesn't seem to have changed things for the better. In fact I would argue that the change in operational control from the Glazers to Ratcliffe has made things worse.

 

[Shamikebab]

Oh how nice of them to make the money that club is making available to the club (while taking out a fortune themselves) and putting nothing in. I'm pretty sure you've done this sad devil's advocate before.

 

[fez]

How many of the managers were regarded as "crap" before they were hired?

Crap isn't the issue. United demand you to do well and do it with style. Quite a few of our managers have had decent league results and been sacked soon after because they scraped those league positions with uninspiring football.

- Moyes was massively out of his depth. Giving him more time would have been pointless.
- LvG was past it when he came. Perhaps with more time might have done better but was like watching Temu Barca.
- Mourinho is a results manager and by that point football had changed and his managerial style didn't work for very long.
- Solskjaer took Mourinhos foundation and focussed more on man management and for a while it worked. As soon as he tried to do anything off his own back things unravelled.
- Ten Hag did well at Ajax within a very well run system where he was given a limited remit and players who knew how they were going to play and had largely always played like that. A promising manager who couldn't handle the extra expectations, complications and responsibilities he took on at United.
- Amorim was simply the wrong manager and we somehow expected miracle bringing a guy from a weak Portuguese league to one where he didn't have about 80% of the players he needed and 90% of the teams in the league can beat you on their day.

Arguably the only manager who was brought in with a super high profile and pedigree vaguely in their prime was Mouninho. The rest were hot property but untested in the big leagues or simply not up to scratch and most people thought so from day one.

There are no guarantees in management outside of probably 3-4 managers. All you can do it hire what you think is the right one and try and give them every chance to succeed. When they fail you get rid. If they are showing signs of hitting a wall, you get rid.

The funny thing is that despite the horror show we have been for over a decade, we have still won more that almost every other side in the league.

 

[spudbynight]

Oh how nice of them to make the money that club is making available to the club (while taking out a fortune themselves) and putting nothing in. I'm pretty sure you've done this sad devil's advocate before.

They own the club. The club belongs to them.

This isn’t “devils advocate”. This is my opinion.

 

[spudbynight]

Crap isn't the issue. United demand you to do well and do it with style. Quite a few of our managers have had decent league results and been sacked soon after because they scraped those league positions with uninspiring football.

- Moyes was massively out of his depth. Giving him more time would have been pointless.
- LvG was past it when he came. Perhaps with more time might have done better but was like watching Temu Barca.
- Mourinho is a results manager and by that point football had changed and his managerial style didn't work for very long.
- Solskjaer took Mourinhos foundation and focussed more on man management and for a while it worked. As soon as he tried to do anything off his own back things unravelled.
- Ten Hag did well at Ajax within a very well run system where he was given a limited remit and players who knew how they were going to play and had largely always played like that. A promising manager who couldn't handle the extra expectations, complications and responsibilities he took on at United.
- Amorim was simply the wrong manager and we somehow expected miracle bringing a guy from a weak Portuguese league to one where he didn't have about 80% of the players he needed and 90% of the teams in the league can beat you on their day.

Arguably the only manager who was brought in with a super high profile and pedigree vaguely in their prime was Mouninho. The rest were hot property but untested in the big leagues or simply not up to scratch and most people thought so from day one.

There are no guarantees in management outside of probably 3-4 managers. All you can do it hire what you think is the right one and try and give them every chance to succeed. When they fail you get rid. If they are showing signs of hitting a wall, you get rid.

The funny thing is that despite the horror show we have been for over a decade, we have still won more that almost every other side in the league.

I got AI to compare the number of trophies won over the last ten years.


1. **Manchester City**
- **Premier League**: 6 (2017–18, 2018–19, 2020–21, 2021–22, 2022–23, 2023–24)
- **FA Cup**: 2 (2018–19, 2022–23)
- **EFL Cup**: 6 (2015–16, 2017–18, 2018–19, 2019–20, 2020–21, 2023–24)
- **Community Shield**: 3 (2018, 2019, 2024)
- **UEFA Champions League**: 1 (2022–23)
- **UEFA Super Cup**: 1 (2023)
- **FIFA Club World Cup**: 1 (2023)
- **Total**: **20 trophies**
- **Notes**: Manchester City’s dominance under Pep Guardiola includes a historic four consecutive Premier League titles (2020–21 to 2023–24) and a treble in 2022–23 (Premier League, FA Cup, Champions League).

2. **Liverpool**
- **Premier League**: 2 (2019–20, 2024–25)
- **FA Cup**: 1 (2021–22)
- **EFL Cup**: 2 (2021–22, 2023–24)
- **Community Shield**: 1 (2022)
- **UEFA Champions League**: 1 (2018–19)
- **UEFA Super Cup**: 1 (2019)
- **FIFA Club World Cup**: 1 (2019)
- **Total**: **9 trophies**
- **Notes**: Liverpool’s success under Jürgen Klopp peaked with the 2019 Champions League and 2020 Premier League, ending a 30-year league title drought. Their 2024–25 title adds to their tally.

3. **Chelsea**
- **Premier League**: 2 (2015–16, 2016–17)
- **FA Cup**: 1 (2017–18)
- **EFL Cup**: 0
- **Community Shield**: 0
- **UEFA Champions League**: 1 (2020–21)
- **UEFA Europa League**: 1 (2018–19)
- **UEFA Super Cup**: 1 (2021)
- **FIFA Club World Cup**: 1 (2021)
- **Total**: **7 trophies**
- **Notes**: Chelsea’s European successes, particularly the 2021 Champions League, bolster their tally, though domestic dominance has waned in recent seasons.

4. **Manchester United**
- **Premier League**: 0
- **FA Cup**: 2 (2015–16, 2023–24)
- **EFL Cup**: 2 (2016–17, 2022–23)
- **Community Shield**: 1 (2016)
- **UEFA Europa League**: 1 (2016–17)
- **Total**: **6 trophies**
- **Notes**: Manchester United’s trophies are spread across domestic cups and one Europa League title, with no Premier League success in this period.

5. **Arsenal**
- **Premier League**: 0
- **FA Cup**: 2 (2016–17, 2019–20)
- **EFL Cup**: 0
- **Community Shield**: 3 (2015, 2017, 2020)
- **Total**: **5


Interestingly Leicester have won 3 trophies in that time including a league title. With the amount of money spent by Man Utd one would expect a better return.

Honestly this whole idea of “United demand you to do well and do it in style” is part of the problem.

Alex Ferguson was probably the best manager ever to manage in England. He did it so long that Man Utd fans often confuse the “Fergie way” with the “Man Utd way”. As things stand Man Utd are a mid table team at best and play some pretty awful football. They are also a graveyard for players and managers.

Pretty much everyone who goes to Man Utd leaves with their reputation worse than when they arrive.

The club, in my opinion, needs to be more realistic with players and managers who it goes after.

 

[Vandle]

20 trophies in 10 years is ridiculous, especially considering how strong Arsenal and Liverpool have been in that time.

I think some are underestimating the shear pull Man Utd still have in world football, for managers or players. There are very few who wouldn't leave their current employ to move there imo. 6 trophies in 10 years is the worst they have been in living memory, just a blip really. They can still outspend everyone at will.

 

[fez]

20 trophies in 10 years is ridiculous, especially considering how strong Arsenal and Liverpool have been in that time.

Lets be honest, its Liverpool that have been the only "big rival" to City. Arsenal have flattered to deceive but haven't realistically come that close. Some of those Liverpool/City title races were insane though.

 

[spudbynight]

Lets be honest, its Liverpool that have been the only "big rival" to City. Arsenal have flattered to deceive but haven't realistically come that close. Some of those Liverpool/City title races were insane though.

I agree, the difference between Liverpool's 9 trophies and Chelsea's 7 doesn't tell the whole picture.

 

[fez]

I agree, the difference between Liverpool's 9 trophies and Chelsea's 7 doesn't tell the whole picture.

Yeah, it tells a picture of a club that would have a hatful of PL trophies in any other era. Today included. 99 points and losing the league? Madness.

 

[C Kent]

According to the i Ratcliffe is keen to give him the season but man utd are concerned he will walk before then

 

[Vandle]

Thought the athletic did a decent pod on this yesterday. They also raised the point that end of the summer Glasner, Iraola and Tuchel (I’m making the very bold assumption that he doesn’t win the world cup ) are all without contracts as it stands. They may as well wait to make a new appointment and save themselves tens of millions in the process.

 

[fez]

Thought the athletic did a decent pod on this yesterday. They also raised the point that end of the summer Glasner, Iraola and Tuchel (I’m making the very bold assumption that he doesn’t win the world cup ) are all without contracts as it stands. They may as well wait to make a new appointment and save themselves tens of millions in the process.

The issue is that 12m is chump change in the grand scheme of things. What is it? £3m per league position. So 4 league positions to replace Amorim.

This is why managers get sacked even though it seems to cost a lot. In the grand scheme of things its irrelevant. Prize money is so large that anything that gets you deeper into competitions or higher in the league is probably worth it.

 

[sigma]

The issue is that 12m is chump change in the grand scheme of things. What is it? £3m per league position. So 4 league positions to replace Amorim.

This is why managers get sacked even though it seems to cost a lot. In the grand scheme of things its irrelevant. Prize money is so large that anything that gets you deeper into competitions or higher in the league is probably worth it.

The keepers are making errors in pretty much every match though. Europe is not on the cards as it stands, Amorim or no Amorim.

Edit - misread what you meant, is it really £3m per position?

 

[fez]

The keepers are making errors in pretty much every match though. Europe is not on the cards as it stands, Amorim or no Amorim.

Edit - misread what you meant, is it really £3m per position?

I believe so but I might be completely wrong.

I would also disagree that Europe is off the table. We are 4 points off EL/CL places currently. Its still super early in the season.

 

[C Kent]

The keepers are making errors in pretty much every match though. Europe is not on the cards as it stands, Amorim or no Amorim.

Edit - misread what you meant, is it really £3m per position?

this is last years cash from league positions (Prize money consists of UK and international merit broadcast payments, equal shares, commercial revenues and facility fees.)

1st, Liverpool - £174.9m
2nd, Arsenal - £171.5m
3rd, Manchester City - £165.5m
4th, Chelsea - £163.7m
5th, Newcastle United - £160.2m
6th, Aston Villa - £159.3m
7th, Nottingham Forest - £152.5m
8th, Brighton - £145.1m
9th, Bournemouth - £143.4m
10th, Brentford - £138.9m
11th, Fulham - £135.5m
12th, Crystal Palace - £136.1m
13th, Everton - £131.8m
14th, West Ham - £130.9m
15th, Manchester United - £136.2m
16th, Wolves - £123.1m
17th, Tottenham - £127.8m
18th, Leicester - £116.9m (relegated)
19th, Ipswich Town - £111.1m (relegated)
20th, Southampton - £109.2m (relegated)

 

[dacads]

Is management now more difficult than ever? Look at Graham Potter as an example, did well at Brighton, but not at Chelsea and now West Ham.

Does this make him a bad manager?

Also one thing I noticed about Guardiola is he is always changing his style and tactics, unlike Amorim. He somehow finds a way to make it work.

Also hindsight is a wonderful thing but I think the club may have made a mistake in sacking Moyes so soon, potentially starting this cycle we are now in.

According to the i Ratcliffe is keen to give him the season but man utd are concerned he will walk before then

Wouldn't blame him, if he wants to keep his sanity and good looks.

 

[Martynt74]

Thought the athletic did a decent pod on this yesterday. They also raised the point that end of the summer Glasner, Iraola and Tuchel (I’m making the very bold assumption that he doesn’t win the world cup ) are all without contracts as it stands. They may as well wait to make a new appointment and save themselves tens of millions in the process.

Just listened at dinner, interesting the points about the alignment of Amorin being success being tied to the reputation of Barrada/Wilcox

 

[Robbo]

I’m not sure about management being more difficult than ever, and it’s still early days, but the overall quality of the Premier League looks very high this season. Even the promoted teams look solid.