Poll: AmorOut - Who next?

[fez]

We had some really bad games with ETH playing that set up though?

Of course we did. Thats why he was eventually sacked. Formations aren't the root of all evil but some formations are more adaptable and some suit different leagues more than others. Crystal Palace are playing 5 at the back as well. The difference is that they are doing a better job of it and playing on the break and they have a good midfield 2.

For Amorims formation we need better/different CMs, potentially another CB, definitely a better LWB and even then I don't trust that this formation works that well in the PL for teams that are looking to dominate games. Thats another £250m to gamble on adapting our team for Amorim who hasn't shown very much at all in the way of being able to handle the job. Thats £250m more to move away from a more traditional system and buy specialist players and push out some of our best current players.

Bruno and Mainoo have no place in this team by the looks of it.

I just don't see how keeping him and leaning into his plan has a good chance of paying off and there is a huge risk of being in the middle of a rebuild again in a year or two when hes replaced and we are limited to manager who play 5 at the back or again, spending a bunch of money to go back to a more traditional formation.

 

[Droolinggimp]

I say stick with him. Keep changing manager will just be repeating the same process over and over. For all we know, he could be the next Fergie. If we can get Europe (CL a massive bonus) this season, thats extra cash for replacing players, getting new ones in to suit RAs team. 26/27 season, fight for a better place and get a good Euro run.
We deffo need to get rid of Bruno, we have had his best, time to get as much as we can for him. Dalot needs to go ASAP, Mainoo, not so sure, but he seems to be out of favour and not in RA plans. Casemiro needs to be replaced, still has the brains and great at heading goals, but his pace and high chance of a being carded is an issue. Shaw too, plays great when fit but getting on now and theres better out there. I do think we should keep Maguire though, just as a back up for another year. Goal threat in emergencies and a solid defender but has a lack of pace but can be used just stick him on a new cheaper contract. Has a good leadership and needed in the dressing room.

Plenty more issues but they are the main ones for me. I say give RA a full 26/27 season and if he fails to get Europe in that season or it all regresses again, then think about replacing perhaps..

 

[sigma]

Of course we did. Thats why he was eventually sacked. Formations aren't the root of all evil but some formations are more adaptable and some suit different leagues more than others. Crystal Palace are playing 5 at the back as well. The difference is that they are doing a better job of it and playing on the break and they have a good midfield 2.

For Amorims formation we need better/different CMs, potentially another CB, definitely a better LWB and even then I don't trust that this formation works that well in the PL for teams that are looking to dominate games. Thats another £250m to gamble on adapting our team for Amorim who hasn't shown very much at all in the way of being able to handle the job. Thats £250m more to move away from a more traditional system and buy specialist players and push out some of our best current players.

Bruno and Mainoo have no place in this team by the looks of it.

I just don't see how keeping him and leaning into his plan has a good chance of paying off and there is a huge risk of being in the middle of a rebuild again in a year or two when hes replaced and we are limited to manager who play 5 at the back or again, spending a bunch of money to go back to a more traditional formation.

This is nothing new though, it's been evident for a while. If they were going to get rid of him for this, surely they would have already?

 

[tangey]

One positive versus ten Hag era is that you seldom see us outplayed. We were routinely outplayed even when at OT by the likes of Bournemouth, Brighton, Forest, Brentford. We were run through even with three in midfield and 4 defenders. I would like to see him try and bring through some younger players but the pressure is so high that they have to be really special to cope. He's playing to try and get some results and that feels short sighted, especially when its basically the same 11 or 12 players getting game time. Beat west Ham and Wolves in the next 8 days and we cement some progress but I expect there to be more ups and downs.

With respect, I know we had a lot of shots, but in the everton game there were long periods of time when it was genuinely impossible to know which team had 10 men. Everton overall had a far better game than we had irrespective of the actual result. There is having a firm ethos to play a certain system, but at some point that just looks pig-minded, such as not being capable of tweaking things to be more forward minded when you have a 10-man opponent for most of the game. What happened to make the pitch bigger, past it round them, make them run, tire them out. mind you with Zirkzee up front that's difficult, in that game it looked like if he tried to pass water he'd make a mess.

Basically, even the most die-hard "this is my system" needs to be able to react to a changing environment. If utd went down to 10 men, he cant play his system simply on basic numbers.

His in-ability to react in that game was a very stark witness to a limitation that is going to stymy (sp ?) utd for as a long as he is there, the hope is that his positive influence in other aspects will improve us, but it appears that limitation will always be there. And each time it is exposed, it's gonna annoy the hell out of the fans.

 

[Shamikebab]

Switch back to 4-3-3 and you have as many problems. We'd have to buy a whole bunch of wingers and CM's. Cunha wouldn't fit anywhere. Amad would have to be benched. We'd have too many CB's.

 

[Calpol]

Crystal Palace are playing 5 at the back as well. The difference is that they are doing a better job of it and playing on the break and they have a good midfield 2.

Bruno and Mainoo have no place in this team by the looks of it.

So basically they have a better pivot and don't try and play a style that is demanded by their fans.

I do think we should keep Maguire though, just as a back up for another year. Goal threat in emergencies and a solid defender but has a lack of pace but can be used just stick him on a new cheaper contract. Has a good leadership and needed in the dressing room.

I think he will go. aside from his leadership role which I don't underestimate. He's not going to become a better or more suited player and we have to think about bringing forward Heaven in the pecking order. He has shown enough to warrant it. Ultimately I don't think we are short in the CB position. Shaw, Martinez, DeLigt, Heaven, Yoro and Mazraoui gives you 100% cover before having to draft in Kukonki or Fredrickson who have both played first team football, albeit fleetingly.

Plenty more issues but they are the main ones for me. I say give RA a full 26/27 season and if he fails to get Europe in that season or it all regresses again, then think about replacing perhaps..

No-one plans like this at United. It's game by game even if you win a trophy! Ineos will stick with their plan until they feel the improvement is not there. Being better than 15th aint hard so he has a low bar set by himself and the players. Anything less than top 8 this year is not adequate improvement in my mind.

With respect, I know we had a lot of shots, but in the everton game there were long periods of time when it was genuinely impossible to know which team had 10 men. Everton overall had a far better game than we had irrespective of the actual result.

It's not always easy to play against 10. Not excusing what was a very poor performance but Arsenal, the best team in the league couldn't beat 10 men yesterday and indeed went behind. Teams are physically very fit and much better organised than they were even 5 years ago. Everyone struggles to break the low block which I think is why even City have become more direct in their approach. Everton were bettering us with 11 but they weren't running through us.

Does anyone want to go back to this?Palace 4 United 0

 

[Robbo]

While we haven't played particularly well, if we'd beaten Everton we'd currently be sitting in joint 3rd (on points). That's how fine the margins are. I don't think enough people are talking about how close the league is this season, only Arsenal have shown any real consistency.

Plenty of question marks remain over Amorim, but as there's no obvious replacement I think he's doing enough to keep himself in a job. Whether he'll ever be good enough, who knows? I change my mind on him every week!

I don't think a different manager can walk into the club right now and really change much, this set of players are always going to be inconsistent. The focus needs to be keeping Mbeumo and Cunha on the pitch, and AFCON is bad news.

 

[Converge]

I don't think a different manager can walk into the club right now and really change much, this set of players are always going to be inconsistent. The focus needs to be keeping Mbeumo and Cunha on the pitch, and AFCON is bad news.

The AFCON period is going to be genuinely horrendous, isn’t it?

 

[Calpol]

The AFCON period is going to be genuinely horrendous, isn’t it?

Let's face it, we don't have too long in-between genuinely horrendous moments as United fans. It might unlock something. Switch Bruno to 10 and bring in Mainoo to midfield. Mazraoui isn't that big a miss as he hasn't really been playing. Amad is probably the toughest one to cover in his RWB role. I guess it will be Dalot . Should have Cunha back and maybe Sesko - although not 100% convinced he makes that big a difference unless Dalot and Dorgu learn how to cross the ball in the next fortnight.

 

[fez]

While we haven't played particularly well, if we'd beaten Everton we'd currently be sitting in joint 3rd (on points).

At this point though he needs to be judged on progress, not on points. We would likely all be singing a different tune if we were showing strong signs of improvement with the occasional wobble rather than games like CP being a good summation of our progress. Largely average performance with the result being dictated by which team gets a little luck.

I think fundamentally I don't see what he has done since he came to United that suggests he should be here next season.

On a really basic level, what has he done that suggests he will one day in the near future be competing for the league? I can't see anything. I can't see any sign that he will take us towards that. I don't see him getting the most out of the players he has. I don't see him outwitting other managers. I don't see routine wins over teams we should be beating. I don't see us outworking opposition despite only having a single game per week. I don't see adaptation to opposition or game state.

We've bought him better players and we've improved a bit. Thats not exactly rocket science or genius managerial work.

The fact the league is so open this season is just flattering us.

 

[Robbo]

I think that's also a fair assessment too @fez. The other day I was actually thinking, would things be any different if we didn't have a manager? Just let Bruno pick the team and results probably wouldn't differ that much.

It's very difficult to try and gauge the impact Amorim is having. As you say, if we make another few signings in key positions and they perform like Cunha and Mbeumo, we're bound to keep improving, but we need a manager to take the team to the next level, and Amorim is still a complete gamble. His performance here so far has been mostly negative.

Eight points separate 2nd and 15th, so everything is very much up in the air. I'll be very interested to see where we are on 4th January after the Leeds game.

 

[Droolinggimp]

A flip side to this is that the Prem is a bloody strong league. The teams we say we should be beating as routine are a lot stronger than a few years back. Going by the points between 3rd and 15th like I pointed out yesterday in here, there is very little difference (5/6pts at the time of my post yesterday). Either the teams are a lot better or everyone is *****.

 

[Robbo]

A flip side to this is that the Prem is a bloody strong league. The teams we say we should be beating as routine are a lot stronger than a few years back. Going by the points between 3rd and 15th like I pointed out yesterday in here, there is very little difference (5/6pts at the time of my post yesterday). Either the teams are a lot better or everyone is *****.

It's definitely the league being stronger, when most established teams can spend £30-40m on individual players, it's inevitable. Scouting plays a huge part too.

 

[sigma]

I think that's also a fair assessment too @fez. The other day I was actually thinking, would things be any different if we didn't have a manager? Just let Bruno pick the team and results probably wouldn't differ that much.

It's very difficult to try and gauge the impact Amorim is having. As you say, if we make another few signings in key positions and they perform like Cunha and Mbeumo, we're bound to keep improving, but we need a manager to take the team to the next level, and Amorim is still a complete gamble. His performance here so far has been mostly negative.

Eight points separate 2nd and 15th, so everything is very much up in the air. I'll be very interested to see where we are on 4th January after the Leeds game.

Why do we assume that the players have another level to get to?

Unless they turn into a "low block" team. If we even have the players for that.

 

[engee]

I’ve had enough. I’m Amorout.

Ignoring the questionable tactics and substitutions, he just can’t seem to get the players up for the games. We play once a week and they appear to be only half trying.

 

[sigma]

I’ve had enough. I’m Amorout.

Ignoring the questionable tactics and substitutions, he just can’t seem to get the players up for the games. We play once a week and they appear to be only half trying.

It was the same under ETH so what makes you think a different manager will make a difference?

Or is it more because this set of players struggle against defensive teams, as the stats and results show.

I'm looking at Spurs and thinking that if Frank can't make them better than they were under Ange then maybe it's not always the manager.

Remember people said it couldn't get worse than ETH.

That isn't to say Amorim is immune.

 

[Calpol]

It was the same under ETH so what makes you think a different manager will make a difference?

Or is it more because this set of players struggle against defensive teams, as the stats and results show.

I'm looking at Spurs and thinking that if Frank can't make them better than they were under Ange then maybe it's not always the manager.

Remember people said it couldn't get worse than ETH.

That isn't to say Amorim is immune.

Sensible.
While it is incredibly frustrating watching those sort of performances I do think a lot of it is plainly a lot of these players just aren't good enough. Dalot goal aside - he is not a wingback, Dorgu neither on current showings. We don't have an elite striker and the midfield is so off what is required in this league it's not funny. I do think that Amorim deserves criticism for how he manages subs. Too often our game falls apart when subs come on especially if it is defensively minded. We should never be shutting up shop at 1-0 at Old Trafford. He brings on Yoro, Martinez, Ugarte and we end up conceding to West ham's only opportunity. Fernandes is playing poorly and is clearly getting very frustrated. I canot see how we progress to the next level with him playing in the current role alongside Casemiro - but what are the options? Thats the problem the squad is thin on quality and we play 1 game a week.

 

[sigma]

Sensible.
While it is incredibly frustrating watching those sort of performances I do think a lot of it is plainly a lot of these players just aren't good enough. Dalot goal aside - he is not a wingback, Dorgu neither on current showings. We don't have an elite striker and the midfield is so off what is required in this league it's not funny. I do think that Amorim deserves criticism for how he manages subs. Too often our game falls apart when subs come on especially if it is defensively minded. We should never be shutting up shop at 1-0 at Old Trafford. He brings on Yoro, Martinez, Ugarte and we end up conceding to West ham's only opportunity. Fernandes is playing poorly and is clearly getting very frustrated. I canot see how we progress to the next level with him playing in the current role alongside Casemiro - but what are the options? Thats the problem the squad is thin on quality and we play 1 game a week.

Without trying to get uber defensive on behalf of Amorim - does he make those subs not because of the game situation but more to manage game time and injuries etc?

 

[Calpol]

Without trying to get uber defensive on behalf of Amorim - does he make those subs not because of the game situation but more to manage game time and injuries etc?

I think it's to do with energy levels. Football with five subs is becoming more like rugby. You ask them to run themselves into the ground and then you swap the ones who are not the elite athletes at 70 mins in order to keep winning "second balls" and pressing for turnovers. Almost every high pressing team has a fall off early in the second half of matches because no-one can keep the intensity required. Ours is worse than most because we don't have the quality to come on. It's clear he doesn't trust Mainoo. Mount is very good off the ball but he cannot carry the ball the way Mbeumo or Cunha or Amad can. There was no striker to replace Zirkzee. So we end up ceding the initiative.

We made AWB look like a world beater last night, dribbling past Dalot and Casemiro. Tackling everything in sight and yet we know he wasn't good enough for United. What's most disappointing is that Mbeumo has been poor for three games, Cunha hasn't really got started so we appear to be dragging them down a level.

So in response, last night was almost all about game situation. He has repeatedly said he picks the players he thinks are best for the game. Otherwise he picks Mainoo every week because the press demands it. Mainoo is not good enough for this league and Amorim knows it. There is no way he gets ahead of Wharton, Rice, Anderson, Bellingham or James in the England squad despite what some fans like to think.

It's a rollercoaster and one that leaves you underwhelmed but feeling a bit sick. Hard to see what changes it other than more transfers.

 

[fez]

It was the same under ETH so what makes you think a different manager will make a difference?

Or is it more because this set of players struggle against defensive teams, as the stats and results show.

I'm looking at Spurs and thinking that if Frank can't make them better than they were under Ange then maybe it's not always the manager.

Remember people said it couldn't get worse than ETH.

That isn't to say Amorim is immune.

West Ham were awful though. We weren't playing against a dug in team that hit us on the break. They were open for chunks of the game. We were just slow and ponderous. Theres no patterns to our play. They committed numbers to attack quite a few times and we just lazily attacked as they got back in numbers at their leisure.

Its just always an excuse. Fundamentally Amorim isn't adding any value to the team. Yes this isn't an elite team but they aren't as crap as this. Every now and then they play well when the conditions are just right but outside of that we are abject. Last night was shocking. We were playing against a team that was awful everywhere on the pitch. We were playing against a team that was there for the taking.

Amorim needs to go. He needs to go before we are having the exact same conversation this time next year after spending another £300m to be saying "yes we are a bit better...because we have bought some better players". The manager is adding nothing.