Will music from a CD player sound exactly the same as from my DVD player?

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If I connect a CD player and a DVD player both with optical connections to my amp will they sound identical?

Logic tells me that it's digital media fed digitally to the amp so they must sound the same?

If so then why do you get CD players costing hundreds of pounds?
 
james.miller said:
oh im just gonna sit back and watch this one :D

Commenting might be more useful?


I'm at complete logger heads in my head over it...

The medium is digital, so it's read and surely pumped down digitally to the amp? So why would a £100 CD player sound better than a £30 DVD player?

But £1000 CD players exist so it must make a difference?
 
NeilFawcett said:
Commenting might be more useful?


I'm at complete logger heads in my head over it...

The medium is digital, so it's read and surely pumped down digitally to the amp? So why would a £100 CD player sound better than a £30 DVD player?

But £1000 CD players exist so it must make a difference?

£1000 CD players make a difference when you connect them via analogue to the amp.

In theory there will be no difference between cd and dvd player but the qualtity of digital outs will be different.

sid
 
NeilFawcett said:
Commenting might be more useful?


fair enough :o assuming a drive can read a disc accurately, they will all produce the same results. except for one critical thing, jitter. its easy enough to produce the same output fomr the same disc on different drives, but if the timing is off it has a negative effect on the dac's that are responsible for the digital>analogue conversions.


expensive players get the timing better. but just how much better is a hot debate. TBH as far as i can see, most of the money goes towards the build, and the name. do we really need 20kg cd players? Denon seems to think so. dont be surprised if a few people will tell you the above statement is rubbish. others will tell you you have no idea just how much better they are. its one of those topics where people will argue 'till they're blue in the face with no real conclusion.
 
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so what your saying is in simple terms they can all read and understand the information as well as the next machine, its how well it can deliver that signal to you that differs?
 
damian666 said:
so what your saying is in simple terms they can all read and understand the information as well as the next machine, its how well it can deliver that signal to you that differs?

But surely the data is digital, it's read perfectly, and then delivered digitally?

Isn't the data given to the amp an 100% copy of the data read from the CD?
 
in terms of what is read from the cd, yes. but not the temporal alignment. its all to do with the cd standard doesnt support 'block accurate addressing'. which i assume means there's no way to instruct the player to align the timing of the output to that on the actual cd.

this is from the wiki article on Jitter:
CD

In the context of digital audio extraction from Compact Discs, jitter causes extracted audio samples to be doubled-up or skipped entirely. The problem occurs because the Philips CD specification doesn't require block-accurate addressing. As a result, the extraction process will restart a few samples early or late, resulting in doubled or omitted samples. These glitches often sound like tiny repeating clicks during playback. An approach that has produced good results is to do jitter correction in software. This involves performing overlapping reads, and then sliding the data around to find overlaps at the edges. Most extraction programs will perform jitter correction.

A jitter meter is a testing instrument for measuring jitter values, and is used in manufacturing DVD and CD-ROM drives.

so jitter is a problem on all players to some degree. the player itself will do its best to correct these over samples and read errors, but buy doing so it can destroy some of the detail in the process so it stands to reason that if the player can time itself more accurately, less correction will occure and the output will be more accurate.

edit: here's a more detailed explanation: http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html

Subject: [2-15] What are "jitter" and "jitter correction"?
(1998/04/06)

The first thing to know is that there are two kinds of jitter that relate to audio CDs. The usual meaning of "jitter" refers to a time-base error when digital samples are converted back to an analog signal; see the jitter article on http://www.digido.com/ for an explanation. The other form of "jitter" is used in the context of digital audio extraction from CDs. This kind of "jitter" causes extracted audio samples to be doubled-up or skipped entirely. (Some people will correctly point out that the latter usage is an abuse of the term "jitter", but we seem to be stuck with it.)

"Jitter correction", in both senses of the word, is the process of compensating for jitter and restoring the audio to its intended form. This section is concerned with the (incorrect use of) "jitter" in the context of digital audio extraction.

The problem occurs because the Philips CD specification doesn't require block-accurate addressing. While the audio data is being fed into a buffer (a FIFO whose high- and low-water marks control the spindle speed), the address information for audio blocks is pulled out of the subcode channel and fed into a different part of the controller. Because the data and address information are disconnected, the CD player is unable to identify the exact start of each block. The inaccuracy is small, but if the system doing the extraction has to stop, write data to disk, and then go back to where it left off, it won't be able to seek to the exact same position. As a result, the extraction process will restart a few samples early or late, resulting in doubled or omitted samples. These glitches often sound like tiny repeating clicks during playback.

On a CD-ROM, the blocks have a 12-byte sync pattern in the header, as well as a copy of the block's address. It's possible to identify the start of a block and get the block's address by watching the data FIFO alone. This is why it's so much easier to pull single blocks off of a CD-ROM.

With most CD-ROM drives that support digital audio extraction, you can get jitter-free audio by using a program that extracts the entire track all at once. The problem with this method is that if the hard drive being written to can't keep up, some of the samples will be dropped. (This is similar to a CD-R buffer underrun, but since the output buffer used during DAE is much smaller than a CD-R's input buffer, the problem is magnified.)

Most newer drives (as well as nearly every model Plextor ever made) are based on an architecture that enables them to accurately detect the start of a block.

An approach that has produced good results is to do jitter correction in software. This involves performing overlapping reads, and then sliding the data around to find overlaps at the edges. Most DAE programs will perform jitter correction.
 
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Digital does not mean perfect, despite all the marketing BS !!!
It's still an electrical signal/current/Noise, so has to be handled with as much care and attention as an analogue one !

In real world terms, what this means is, a cheap DVD player and cheap CD Player, connected digitally to an AV amp are going to sound pretty much the same. Equally a PC with a digital out, into the same DAC/AV amp.

Hook up a high end Transport/CD player Digitally again into this same amp, and in theory you would hear a small improvement.

BUT, the limitation here is likely to be the DAC's in the AV amp, often they are not that hot on music, along with the rest of the AV amp !!!

The £1000 CD Player will have it's own on board DAC, as well as transport. Which will have much better performance than the AV amp.
Hence it's always better to connect a "better" CD player via it's analogue connections.

Then you will hear why it cost £1000, and justifies it's price.
 
CD uses a lot of error correction on reading the disks as well, unlike CDROM which is allowed to retry many times to ensure that it reads the data perfectly, CD audio specification forces the CD Transport to 'guestimate' every time a read error is detected.

A better quality CD (or DVD) transport is designed with two main criterior. Firstly to try to get less read errors in the first place, thus relying on error correction less. And secondly to have better error correction algorithms so that when errors do occur they are less critical.

As already mentioned jitter is also an issue with all digital media. And as soon as you split your CD and DAC into two separate boxes you have likely added yet another source of jitter. As futher jitter is caused by the Transport and DAC having their own independant 44.1khz clocks. High end transports and dacs often use a separate clock cable, so that the two clocks are in perfect digital sync. But cheaper ones attempt to reclaim the clock from the SPDIF signal, and that is not 'perfect'.

My own CD transport definatly sounds better than my DVD player, and both are fairly high quality devices in their own right. (Although not up to the level where they have clock sync cables :( )
 
If you're trying to ditch a CD player from your rack and just use a DVD player for both then you might as well go for it. It's probably going to sound perfectly good enough for your and most other peoples ears.
 
NeilFawcett said:
If I connect a CD player and a DVD player both with optical connections to my amp will they sound identical?

there is only one way to find out if they will sounds the same to you connected to your amp.
 
Perhaps you should just flick a coin and decide which is better, or is that still too much effort ??? :rolleyes:

I have plenty of coins to flip, but posted in the hope that someone could suggest if I could instead use them to buy a dedicated CD player - ie: If/how a CD player will improve on a DVD players output...

I've had some interesting comments thusfar but it would be great to hear from someone who has a CD and DVD player hooked up to their amp... And if they can notice any real difference?
 
Well what your asking has to many variables, depends on the DVD player used, the CDP used, how revealing the rest of the system is...etc etc.
As has been explained not all "player" perform or sound the same.
Would it be worth it.... you tell us, it's your ears that have to be satisfied with the difference, not a group of people off a forum !!!!...

That's the thing with audio, it's very rarely a black and white decision, as peoples personal preference and taste come into the equation. So you really have to get away from the keyboard and go listen and make your own judgement as to what you feel you need in your set up.

For what it's worth, as I said before, if your thinking/using £100 players when connected via a SPDIF to an AV amp you will have the same performance. As at this level the players will be using similar low grade parts.

If you used the Analogue outputs then the CDP should be noticeable better, but then we don't know what players we are to consider. Plus your opening question was referring to using the player as a transport, and the digital outs.

TBH, a this price point don't worry about it, just plug in and use/enjoy what you have...... If you want better CD sound, get a better CD player, and use the analogue outputs, into a stereo amp.

So, how long is a piece of string !?!?! ;)
 
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