Hillsborough inquest verdict.

The Geezer · 26 Apr 2016 at 18:41

BaZ87 said:
I mentioned in the thread in the Football Stadium, it's shocking how successful their smear campaign was. So many people are unaware that Lord Justice Taylors initial report back in 1990 cleared supporters and pointed the finger at the police for the disaster - they still chose to believe the lies spread through that ****rag.

You can keep saying it until you're blue in the face - some people have already made their minds up on their version of the truth, much like the Sun at the time.

Even after 2 formal reviews and the responsible people / organisations being called out - why are posters coming in here and spouting their **** ?

Is disrespectful to those who lost their lives and the families they left behind

dowie · 26 Apr 2016 at 18:43

Trucamo said:
No one seems to have answered me yet, why were the barriers installed at the edge of the pitch in the first place? I imagine to stop football fans entering the pitch which wouldn't be necessary if football fans could be trusted to behave appropriately. Most concerts I've been to/seen have only had waist height barriers and these were without issue. What was it which demanded the use of crush barriers at Hillsborough?

because unfortunately some of the 'fans' were complete scum and would fight each other - three years earlier some Liverpool 'fans' caused this disaster:

Tefal · 26 Apr 2016 at 18:44

Trucamo said:
No one seems to have answered me yet, why were the barriers installed at the edge of the pitch in the first place? I imagine to stop football fans entering the pitch which wouldn't be necessary if football fans could be trusted to behave appropriately. Most concerts I've been to/seen have only had waist height barriers and these were without issue. What was it which demanded the use of crush barriers at Hillsborough?

Crush barriers are the waist high barriers in the standa to stop the people at the front being crushed by everyone behind (breaks it up into sections) they had been there since before ww2.

estebanrey · 26 Apr 2016 at 18:45

estebanrey said:
But it's these strawman arguments that aren't helping. Where on this thread has anyone solely blamed the fans? Where has anyone written a post in the style of that famous Kelvin McKenzie piece? No where I can see.

When you keep dragging this back to a binary argument that's basically "unless you put 100% of the blame onto the police then you are 100% blaming the fans" we can't get anywhere.

This isn't black and white and the way I see what we have now being discussed is whether the police/authorities were 100% to blame or 99% to blame with anyone taking the latter position being made out to be a heartless scum bag who has some kind of contempt for the grieving relatives.

The Geezer said:
You can keep saying it until you're blue in the face - some people have already made their minds up on their version of the truth, much like the Sun at the time.

Even after 2 formal reviews and the responsible people / organisations being called out - why are posters coming in here and spouting their **** ?

Is disrespectful to those who lost their lives and the families they left behind

Point proved

Scam · 26 Apr 2016 at 18:47

The Geezer said:
Is disrespectful to those who lost their lives and the families they left behind

If I were the family of a policeman at that game that did nothing but attempt to save lives then I would find it extremely disrespectful to have people saying things like 'the police deserve what they get'. It swings both ways :rolleyes:

Like we said, nothing is black and white. Football fans seem to be the best at forgetting that.

Tefal · 26 Apr 2016 at 18:49

ColdAsIce said:
Have you seriously never been in crowds like this before? People use their whole body weight and push/surge forward. Also add to the fact it's a cup final that has started and people are wanting to go watch their team.

So your saying people are using thier full body weight to push forward to force thier way forward because they want to watch thier team.

So conciously using force against the people in front of them.

But its not thier fault?

Arazi · 26 Apr 2016 at 18:55

dowie said:
because unfortunately some of the 'fans' were complete scum and would fight each other - three years earlier some Liverpool 'fans' caused this disaster:

I do remember this but at the time i didn't really keep up with it much as i was young.

What actually happened after this regarding blame, prosecutions etc, that video is shocking.

The Geezer · 26 Apr 2016 at 18:56

Tefal said:
But its not thier fault?

The jury said it was not their fault, when asked the direct question as part of their assessment of the evidence which took 2 years for them to review.

Maybe you can fund the appeal to see if a new jury can reach a different outcome ?

holymonk · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:02

Arazi said:
I do remember this but at the time i didn't really keep up with it much as i was young.

What actually happened after this regarding blame, prosecutions etc, that video is shocking.

Liverpool fans like to forget this.

Tefal · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:03

The Geezer said:
The jury said it was not their fault, when asked the direct question as part of their assessment of the evidence which took 2 years for them to review.

Maybe you can fund the appeal to see if a new jury can reach a different outcome ?

You realise a jury isnt some collection of super beings its just normal people right?

Were all the answers unanimus?

Threepwood · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:05

Arazi · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:05

I know they got kicked out of European football because of it but that is all i remember.

Trucamo · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:05

Tefal said:
Crush barriers are the waist high barriers in the standa to stop the people at the front being crushed by everyone behind (breaks it up into sections) they had been there since before ww2.

My mistake, I meant the large 8ft+ fence separating the crowd from the pitch, if that were at waist height people would have been able to escape instead of being penned up like prisoners/animals. The fact this fence was deemed a necessity is the fault of nobody but those hooligans, thus some of this can be attributed to them.

Pigeon_Killer · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:09

Now we have the truth it's time for justice to be served

Cosimo · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:17

Threepwood said:

23 years later the rag apologised for their lies:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...dly-sorry-over-false-fan-conduct-reports.html

Orionaut · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:22

Tefal said:
So your saying people are using thier full body weight to push forward to force thier way forward because they want to watch thier team.

So conciously using force against the people in front of them.

But its not their fault?

Reading through this, I do find myself wondering how the question put to the Jury was actually interpreted by them.

a) Were the supporters who died partially responsible for their own deaths or not? (But excluding the possibility that other supporters, say the ones outside trying to get in, might have been) Y/N

or

b) Were any supporters partially responsible for the deaths (Including the supporters who were outside trying to get in) Y/N

The distinction is a fairly important one!

Wizzfizz · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:23

Thompson_NCL said:
snip

If you're going to make such remarks like that, then I'd suggest that you don't bother posting in this thread again

dowie · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:24

What? Someone has a different opinion?

grumpysculler · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:25

Scam said:
If I were the family of a policeman at that game that did nothing but attempt to save lives then I would find it extremely disrespectful to have people saying things like 'the police deserve what they get'. It swings both ways

The Police as an institution probably do deserve what they get. That doesn't mean that many officers on the ground didn't do a pretty good job at the time given the instructions and information on the day. It seems to have been primarily a command and control failure, down to key senior officers.

But so many of them did alter statements and conceal evidence. Any institution (public or private) that goes to such lengths to shift blame and hide the truth is rotten to the core. Where are the policemen who stood up and told the truth because it was the right thing to do? Who put integrity ahead of toeing the party line?

This is far from the only example - banking and car manufacturers being two others that spring to mind. Cultural corruption.

Threepwood · 26 Apr 2016 at 19:30

Cosimo said:
23 years later the rag apologised for their lies:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...dly-sorry-over-false-fan-conduct-reports.html

Too little, too late.

Scum.