It doesn't mean it wasn't a bad design which was only there out of necessity due to some of the fans being out of control. I don't think they pen people in any more do they?
Hillsborough inquest verdict.
- Thread starter Danthus
- Start date
- Status
It doesn't mean it wasn't a bad design which was only there out of necessity due to some of the fans being out of control. I don't think they pen people in any more do they?
Yes.
So you're saying if you had been part of the crowd, drunk and possibly without a ticket and you'd contributed to the general carnage through pushing and shoving your way to see a football game, you'd feel no ounce of regret about your actions, irrespective of if that result could have been avoided if the situation had been handled differently?
I don't think anyone could grasp the full scale of what was about to unfold or what even was unfolding right there and then in front of them.
I just hope the whole thing can be put to bed now. It has dragged on for way too long - shame on the police for the cover up. RIP to the victims.
I just hope the whole thing can be put to bed now. It has dragged on for way too long - shame on the police for the cover up. RIP to the victims.
Soldato
- Joined
- 20 Jul 2004
- Posts
- 3,648
- Location
- Dublin, Ireland
Wow, there is some amount of wilful ignorance on display in this thread.
Nate
Nate
Surely that would be a matter for someone in that circumstance to deal with as best they could, rather than a hypothetical stick for you to beat survivors of a disaster with?
It's a good job I didn't use it as a stick to beat anybody with then isn't it?
Which brings us neatly back to what I quoted originally and agreed with.
Your argument above is attributing things I never said to me in order to win your point, no one is blaming the victims, no one is saying that they deserved it, that it wasn't a tragedy, but it seems if you don't take one particular view of the events you're immediately exonerating the police of any wrong doing and spouting ill of the dead.
There is, in my opinion, no 100% allocation of blame, at the end of the day it was the Police's errors that meant an avoidable situation wasn't avoided, and 96 people sadly lost their lives as a result. They then lied about it, which I have stated was a disgrace.
Ultimately though, the police weren't forcing people in using riot sticks, they screwed up dealing with a very bad situation fuelled by excitement, alcohol and the crowd mentality and quite probably the vast minority. But there were people there who contributed to the events and for that to be whitewashed is what I question.
I think it's more the case that we're mostly not all that invested in it.
For Liverpool fans, this is the most important thing to happen since 1989. For the rest of us, the wall-to-wall coverage in the news is curious, and by now slightly irritating.
Some of us are now asking (basic) questions because of said wall-to-wall coverage coupled with a passing curiosity, and the average Liverpool fan is going into meltdown because of it. "How have you /not/ been following this case for that last 30 years? You're so ignorant!"
So honestly, I'm just going to ignore it all now, because some people are so emotionally involved you can't get a simple answer.
As I've said, and I'll keep saying your ilk... The none of the evidence, reports or inquests support your opinions. I'm not looking for an argument or using semantics, I'm pointing out that your opinions on this subject are. by any reasonable definition, wrong and also by the way, offensive.
Soldato
- Joined
- 8 Mar 2007
- Posts
- 10,938
Are you labeling every single fan there, regardless of their exposure to a life threatening situation, a "survivor"?
Same goes to all the people who keep bandying around the term "victim blaming", are you suggesting that every single fan (and not just the 96 dead, hundreds injured or psychologically damaged) there that day can call themselves a "victim" of Hillsborough?
Last edited:
no I'm not. And I didn't say that.
He has not been found criminally negligent at all.
Soldato
- Joined
- 8 Mar 2007
- Posts
- 10,938
The same strawman, again and again.
Please quote the people that have said the police are blameless.......
....
...
..
...still waiting...
...nope?
Then stop knocking down an argument that no one is making. Stop turning this into and either/or argument because whilst it may work on the likes of Question Time or a Guardian article, people here have a chance to explain and clarify the points they are making.
You don't think your city, its club, and its police should have learned some lessons from what happened with the spurs fans a few years earlier in that very stand?
I'd put the FA in the dock on that count too- how could they keep agreeing to these big matches at such a venue?!
Last edited:
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail...perate-to-see-match-news-footage/1B26058_0009
The lengths and risks people would take to get into a game without a ticket in 86. I can see why they might think it's easier to let them in. Crazy times.
The lengths and risks people would take to get into a game without a ticket in 86. I can see why they might think it's easier to let them in. Crazy times.
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 17 Feb 2003
- Posts
- 29,640
- Location
- Chelmsford
There is but it's more of a misunderstanding. As I said earlier, it was a long time ago now and younger people posting on here may not have been born when it happened. For us older members, I recall what it was like going to football in the 80's. I remember going to an FA cup away game a few season earlier and it was a terrifying experience.
I wasn't much fun tbh and I wonder looking back why I even went. I guess at the time, no one knew any different. If you mentioned Health & Safety back then, they'd have asked we they were in the charts.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The things we know today evolve from the mistakes that were made yesterday and that's always been the case..
I can only speak from my own experience. Hogmanay street party in Edinburgh, before they sold tickets to the event for safety, it was a complete free for all. I was probably about 12 or 13, my parents took me to the street party to see the fireworks and the marching band. Obviously a lot of people were in high spirits and very likely intoxicated.
Don't know if you know Edinburgh at all but near the mound (Art gallery) there was a BBC camera crew on a small section built from scaffolding right on the corner. Combination of events, as the clock got closer to midnight and the band were coming down the mound, for some reason a mass of people wanted to be on camera. They were pushing forward towards the BBC camera crew on that corner. It turned into a crush and all we could do as a family was move with it, in a forward motion. Thankfully my Dad was able to lift both me and my mum over the crash barriers but he had to just stick it out in the crowd. We lost him for a bit and thankfully stewards eventually removed some of the crash barriers that were in place to release the pressure.
So yea absolutely no control other than moving forward with the crowd of very excitable people and being forced into a crush as the space was too small for the people trying to squeeze in.
- Status