Brexit thread - what happens next

Amp34 · 22 Jul 2016 at 01:55

So basically it sounds like you feel that if you leave the UK then you should basically give up your British passport/citizenship and **** off?

What is your definition of "loaded" are we talking a salary of £30k a year or are we talking £200k in liquid assets?

If skilled workers can bring people in on that then why can't a Brit on £30k (if that's your definition of loaded) bring back their spouse from abroad when they come back?

The problem is your whole premise doesn't make sense, which is probably why it is not and never will be a policy.

phil675 · 22 Jul 2016 at 01:59

Amp34 said:
So basically it sounds like you feel that if you leave the UK then you should basically give up your British passport/citizenship and **** off?

You keep saying this but I've never said it.

Amp34 said:
What is your definition of "loaded" are we talking a salary of £30k a year or are we talking £200k in liquid assets?

Dubai loaded.

Amp34 said:
If skilled workers can bring people in on that then why can't a Brit on £30k (if that's your definition of loaded) bring back their spouse from abroad when they come back?

I've not made any distinction between outside immigrant or British ex-pat. The foreign spouses of either should go through the same process.

Stretch · 22 Jul 2016 at 02:10

phil675 said:
Keeping useless people out is important to me, we already enough useless natives here.

Angry uppity ones too

Amp34 · 22 Jul 2016 at 02:30

phil675 said:
You keep saying this but I've never said it.

Dubai loaded.

I've not made any distinction between outside immigrant or British ex-pat. The foreign spouses of either should go through the same process.

So what are you saying? It sounds very much like that. You just said pretty much anyone that has left for more than a year or so shouldn't come back, and anyone that has a non British spouse.

So basically no one is going to be able to bring in any family? Meaning only single skilled workers are ever going to apply - back to the point about it being almost entirely young people applying, rather than the highly skilled and experienced people.

phil675 · 22 Jul 2016 at 02:44

Amp34 said:
So what are you saying? It sounds very much like that. You just said pretty much anyone that has left for more than a year or so shouldn't come back, and anyone that has a non British spouse.

So basically no one is going to be able to bring in any family? Meaning only single skilled workers are ever going to apply - back to the point about it being almost entirely young people applying, rather than the highly skilled and experienced people.

Your talking rubbish again saying I've said something which I haven't.

My opinion is that if someone moves to another country, marries and has kids, then it turns out the spouse and kids are not eligible to come back to the UK, that is their problem, they knew what they were doing, it isn't something that just happens, we should not have to give the spouse and kids the right to live here.

I work with a few foreigners that are skilled and qualified, who worked hard just so that they could live here. That is the kind of people we need.

The spouse should not automatically be given the right to live here too if all they did to deserve it was marry the right person. If they want to bring their family along, they need to be earning enough that the costs to taxpayers, education, healthcare etc. are offset.

Amp34 · 22 Jul 2016 at 05:18

In which case I don't think you realise the affect of the policy you are advocating. You're basically saying "you can come back to the UK or you can live with your spouse and kids. Choose one."

It's even more callous when you realise that it would be a retrospective punishment. Bring it in now and there would be hundreds of thousands/millions of British citizens affected. None of who, when they got into a relationship with someone from another country (be that in the UK or abroad), would have known they would not be able to live with them in the UK.

TBH if that's the kind of country the UK is to become then I'm quite happy not ever going back, along with a significant number of others.

Out of interest, from your last paragraph, I assume you do actually earn enough to cover the costs for your health, education etc. If you are earning less than £35k you are a drain on society.

EDIT: Either way, the point is there is no way in hell the conservative governments promise of immigration down to 10s of thousands ever being met. And if it was it would cause major problems for the UK economy and tear families apart (and quite possibly be illegal depending on how they went about it).

phil675 · 22 Jul 2016 at 05:27

Amp34 said:
In which case I don't think you realise the affect of the policy you are advocating. You're basically saying "you can come back to the UK or you can live with your spouse and kids. Choose one."

Or just.. don't have kids until you've got your partners visa sorted! Why do you have to phrase it like children are being separated from their parents at the gates of Auschwitz.

Arthur Hucksake · 22 Jul 2016 at 05:38

I think the answer lands somewhere between the two extremes you are debating.

Allow entry with reasonable conditions to be met within two years? Isn't that similar to what non-EU spouses have to adhere to currently? Just reform the rules and apply them to EU citizens as well.

Amp34 · 22 Jul 2016 at 07:04

Arthur Hucksake said:
I think the answer lands somewhere between the two extremes you are debating.

Allow entry with reasonable conditions to be met within two years? Isn't that similar to what non-EU spouses have to adhere to currently? Just reform the rules and apply them to EU citizens as well.

That's actually what I'm proposing. I'm not suggesting a free for all.

As I mentioned before the Canadian system requires you to have lived together for at least on year as a couple in a marriage like relationship (they recognise common law), and have a requirement for the couple to still be a couple after 2 years in Canada, and the sponsor is liable for any costs incurred by the state for the first few years if things fall through. I don't believe there is a financial requirement, although showing you can reasonably take care of the partner is part of the application I believe. Seems reasonable to me.

Amp34 · 22 Jul 2016 at 07:05

phil675 said:
Or just.. don't have kids until you've got your partners visa sorted! Why do you have to phrase it like children are being separated from their parents at the gates of Auschwitz.

I don't think you can un have kids because of a retrospective law change.

estebanrey · 22 Jul 2016 at 08:33

Amp34 said:
If you are earning less than £35k you are a drain on society.

It's not that simple. A healthy childless man earning £28k is taking less from society than a man with an lifelong medical condition earning £38k with two kids is.

Zethor · 22 Jul 2016 at 09:18

Arthur Hucksake said:
I think the answer lands somewhere between the two extremes you are debating.

Allow entry with reasonable conditions to be met within two years? Isn't that similar to what non-EU spouses have to adhere to currently? Just reform the rules and apply them to EU citizens as well.

Simple, right? Except of course the EU politicians (particularly Eastern ones) who agree with that have to stand in front of their voters and say something like:
'Hey guys, do you know that freedom on movement you like so much? Well, you can forget about it. And what do we get as a compensation? Nothing, we just have to be nice to the English who left the EU because they hate you. It's what Jesus would do!'

Faustus · 22 Jul 2016 at 09:40

Mr Jack said:
I assume you have evidence for that?

The whole marriage of convenience 'trade' is widely abused and has been reported on widely. Even today regular raids by the authorities take place at registry offices and the like. Some Crown Courts have special sitting days to deal with offenders.

Terminal_Boy · 22 Jul 2016 at 09:41

Are will still doomed?

Freakbro · 22 Jul 2016 at 09:45

Terminal_Boy said:
Are will still doomed?

Yep, nothing's changed there, in 5.5 billion years the Sun will expand into a red giant and make the Earth uninhabitable.

We might just have left the EU by then....

Mr Jack · 22 Jul 2016 at 09:47

Faustus said:
The whole marriage of convenience 'trade' is widely abused and has been reported on widely. Even today regular raids by the authorities take place at registry offices and the like. Some Crown Courts have special sitting days to deal with offenders.

There are sham marriages, yes, but they still make up a very small proportion of the total, AFAICT.

Mynight · 22 Jul 2016 at 09:56

Freakbro said:
Yep, nothing's changed there, in 5.5 billion years the Sun will expand into a red giant and make the Earth uninhabitable.

We might just have left the EU by then....

That's the kind of positive thinking people have been asking for!

Faustus · 22 Jul 2016 at 09:59

Mr Jack said:
There are sham marriages, yes, but they still make up a very small proportion of the total, AFAICT.

I assume you have a data set for such an assertion?

Faustus · 22 Jul 2016 at 10:02

estebanrey said:
It's not that simple. A healthy childless man earning £28k is taking less from society than a man with an lifelong medical condition earning £38k with two kids is.

It might only be athletes foot......

Skunkworks · 22 Jul 2016 at 10:09

Freakbro said:
Yep, nothing's changed there, in 5.5 billion years the Sun will expand into a red giant and make the Earth uninhabitable.

We might just have left the EU by then....

Can we still avoid this by not triggering A50?