Racist! Really?

Soldato
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I specifically said 'what now constitutes the USA' for this reason.

https://www.theroot.com/how-many-slaves-landed-in-the-us-1790873989

I suggest there's an over emphasis on slavery concerning Britain, its colonies and successor nations like the USA. The largest amount of slaves went to Brazil (a Portuguese colony)... Circa 40% or 4.9 million of the slaves that reached the Americas from Africa.

There is a narrative that 'whites' and their countries are 'rich' primarily off the back of slavery and as such, some form of reparative action is justified.

The also I would suggest often an implied suggestion that the lead group for trans Atlantic slavery was the British and their colonies.

Such a world view doesn't stand up well to scrutiny in my opinion given the widespread use of slavery by many different peoples in the past and given that the biggest slavers in the trans Atlantic game, the Portuguese, are not a particularly wealthy nation now and neither is their largest colony, Brazil.

Interesting, thanks.

I see your point about Britain and her colonies not being the lead group when it comes to Transatlantic slavery.

However, those figures don't account for the (estimated) 1.2m slaves illegally smuggled into America after the 1807 act prohibiting the importing of slaves, or the fact that by the 1860 census there were nearly 4m slaves in the US.

https://www.theroot.com/slavery-by-the-numbers-1790874492 said:
Largely as a result of natural increase, the United States went from being a country that accounted for 6 percent of slaves imported to the New World to one that in 1860 held more than 60 percent of the hemisphere’s slave population, according to Steven Mintz, author of “American Slavery in Comparative Perspective,” for the Gilder Lehrman Institute. (It’s worth noting that Stanley Engerman, Richard Sutch and Gavin Wright put that number closer to 50 percent in their March 2003 report on “Slavery” (pdf) for the University of California Project on the Historical Statistics of the United States.)

That juxtaposes the fate of the European slaves from Barbary Pirates — whose numbers for various reasons declined rather than increased.

Whether 'whites' and their countries became 'rich' primarily off the back of slavery is a difficult question to answer, and the topic of reparations is even more complex. What's undeniable is that Britain and her colonies did subjugate and enslave millions of people, and we're still dealing with the consequences today in many ways.
 
Soldato
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Interesting, thanks.

I see your point about Britain and her colonies not being the lead group when it comes to Transatlantic slavery.

However, those figures don't account for the (estimated) 1.2m slaves illegally smuggled into America after the 1807 act prohibiting the importing of slaves, or the fact that by the 1860 census there were nearly 4m slaves in the US.

That juxtaposes the fate of the European slaves from Barbary Pirates — whose numbers for various reasons declined rather than increased.

Whether 'whites' and their countries became 'rich' primarily off the back of slavery is a difficult question to answer, and the topic of reparations is even more complex. What's undeniable is that Britain and her colonies did subjugate and enslave millions of people, and we're still dealing with the consequences today in many ways.

I could not see a citation for the 1.2 million slaves smuggled into America (and by this do your refer to the USA? ) after 1807 the article details that the bulk in the increase in numbers was due to population growth from the existing slaves running at a bit under 30‰ a year. It does mention an internal movement to the south of around one million slaves within the USA?

A quick search suggests the actual number was 'up to' 50,000? And that was mainly via states not then admitted to the Union.


While there are no exact figures known, historians estimate that up to 50,000 slaves were illegally imported into the United States after 1808, mostly through Spanish Floridaand Texas, before those states were admitted to the Union.[13]

As the linked article cites..

Here’s an interesting one: “Over a million Europeans were held as slaves from the 1530s through the 1780s in Africa, and hundreds of thousands were kept as slaves by the Ottomans in eastern Europe and Asia,” writes Alan Gallay in his essay “Indian Slavery in the Americas” for the Gilder Lehrman Institute. “In 1650,” Gallay adds, “more English were enslaved in Africa than Africans enslaved in English colonies.”

Which was rather my original point..

That the North African slavers worked their slaves to death (mostly the men) or sold them of to work in brothels (mostly the women) without allowing for a resentful, growing population to remain isn't exactly, in my view, a great point morally for the African slavers vs the European ones.

Of course the American slavers were not allowing the African slaves to reproduce so rapidly out of the good of their hearts but even that 4 million by the 1860's was less then the original slaves taken to Brazil!

With regards to the reparations the argument is normally slavery made some people rich, some nations that engaged in slavery are currently relatively rich ergo the are rich *because*of slavery.

A point I don't think holds up wheel to scrutiny... Latin America imported far more slaves and had far greater natural resources then the North yet is poorer then the North currently. North America only really got going economically when it ditched slavery following a bitter civil war... Which itself was fought mostly beacuse the northern states were recognising that slavery, in the south, was holding the nation back. Concerns for slaves welfare and other ethical objections were also present but probably would not have been enough alone, at the time, to start the civil war which ended slavery in the USA
 
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Soldato
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I don't hold modern day Germans accountable for the actions of their ancestors in ww2 or indeed ww1. It was interesting visiting Jersey this weekend and seeing all the German visitors to the war exhibits so they've obviously got over it too.

It's why I also don't understand this massive hard-on for a guilt complex when it comes to slavery that occurred way before any of us were born.

Accept and learn from it but don't let it define you or your attitude to others. Again, identity politics holding society back until we all devour each other...
 
Soldato
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I could not see a citation for the 1.2 million slaves smuggled into America (and by this do your refer to the USA? ) after 1807 the article details that the bulk in the increase in numbers was due to population growth from the existing slaves running at a bit under 30‰ a year. It does mention an internal movement to the south of around one million slaves within the USA?


From the US National Archives:

It is estimated that the total number of slaves brought into the U.S. illegally during the first half the 19th century is approximately 1.2 million. Given this figure, it is hard to determine the effect of laws banning importation after 1808. As laws were strengthened and enforcement increased, so did attempts to subvert them.


A quick search suggests the actual number was 'up to' 50,000? And that was mainly via states not then admitted to the Union.


It’s little surprise that there are different views on the numbers, but there’s quite a gap between 50k and 1.2m. The census, while unlikely to be 100% accurate, is as close as we’re likely to get with the 4m figure of total slaves in 1860 (regardless of where they came from).



As the linked article cites...Which was rather my original point...


Which I wasn’t contesting. I hadn’t heard that before and was genuinely interested to find out more (I wasn’t disputing what you said). However, it doesn’t paint the whole picture of slaves in the United States. Whether they came over in boats or were born into slavery, there were still ~4m slaves in the USA by 1860. More than the number of European slaves in Africa (by even the highest estimates), and more than or equal to the rest of the Americas combined at that time.


That the North African slavers worked their slaves to death (mostly the men) or sold them of to work in brothels (mostly the women) without allowing for a resentful, growing population to remain isn't exactly, in my view, a great point morally for the African slavers vs the European ones.


Which isn’t what I said and certainly wasn’t suggesting. However, many European slaves were ransomed, and eventually European countries went to war to get their citizens back and to cease the Barbary slave trade. Neither of which happen for the Africans (for obvious reasons). Even after the American War of Independence, the freed slaves were still very much second-class citizens.


Of course the American slavers were not allowing the African slaves to reproduce so rapidly out of the good of their hearts but even that 4 million by the 1860's was less then the original slaves taken to Brazil!


Very true, your point that Portugal and Brazil, despite bringing more slaves across the Atlantic, are less well off than the UK and USA is a valid one. I simply stated that the reasons for this are likely to be more complicated than the simple correlation.


With regards to the reparations the argument is normally slavery made some people rich, some nations that engaged in slavery are currently relatively rich ergo the are rich *because* of slavery.


A point I don't think holds up well to scrutiny... Latin America imported far more slaves and had far greater natural resources then the North yet is poorer than the North currently. North America only really got going economically when it ditched slavery following a bitter civil war...


Which itself was fought mostly beacuse the northern states were recognising that slavery, in the south, was holding the nation back. Concerns for slave’s welfare and other ethical objections were also present but probably would not have been enough alone, at the time, to start the civil war which ended slavery in the USA.


Again, I’m not disputing these points, and I didn’t posit an opinion on reparations. I simply stated that, regardless of where they came from, the treatment of the US slaves and their descendants have far-reaching consequences that we’re still dealing with today.


Your initial point to @Jono8 was that more European slaves were sent to Africa than African slaves were sent to the USA. While technically true, I don’t think it paints the entire picture, and that’s what I’ve been trying to explore.
 
Man of Honour
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[..]
Whether 'whites' and their countries became 'rich' primarily off the back of slavery is a difficult question to answer, and the topic of reparations is even more complex. What's undeniable is that Britain and her colonies did subjugate and enslave millions of people, and we're still dealing with the consequences today in many ways.

The USA wasn't a British colony in 1860. As you yourself pointed out, slavery only became relatively common in that part of the world after it stopped being a British colony. Brazil was never a British colony. Where's your evidence to support your statement that Britain and her colonies enslaved millions of people? Saying it's undeniable isn't evidence. I could say that it's undeniable that the moon is made of cheese.

[..] Your initial point to @Jono8 was that more European slaves were sent to Africa than African slaves were sent to the USA. While technically true, I don’t think it paints the entire picture, and that’s what I’ve been trying to explore.

It's something that's completely left out of the dominant narrative, so it's a particularly important part of the entire picture.

Also completely left out of the dominant narrative is that the Islamic slave trade enslaved more people in total than the entire Atlantic slave trade. Possibly more African people, but definitely more people in total.
 
Soldato
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The USA wasn't a British colony in 1860. As you yourself pointed out, slavery only became relatively common in that part of the world after it stopped being a British colony.


I was following on from @Caracus2k’s phrasing “there's an over emphasis on slavery concerning Britain, its colonies and successor nations like the USA”. I admit that could have been clearer.


Brazil was never a British colony.


I never suggested it was.


Where's your evidence to support your statement that Britain and her colonies enslaved millions of people? Saying it's undeniable isn't evidence. I could say that it's undeniable that the moon is made of cheese.


As above, I was including “successor nations” within that phrase. However, there is a good argument for millions of Indian slaves under British rule if you want to go down that road…


It's something that's completely left out of the dominant narrative, so it's a particularly important part of the entire picture.


Which I’m not disagreeing with.


Also completely left out of the dominant narrative is that the Islamic slave trade enslaved more people in total than the entire Atlantic slave trade. Possibly more African people, but definitely more people in total.


Again, this is not something I’m contesting, but it’s a bit of a moot point in relation to the (original) context of this thread.
 
Man of Honour
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[..]As above, I was including “successor nations” within that phrase.

Stating "What's undeniable is that Britain and her colonies did subjugate and enslave millions of people" is wrong in several ways even if you were "following on" from someone who used the phrase "Britain, its colonies and successor nations". They were including "successor nations" within that phrase. You were not. They were referring to slavery, specifically slavery. You were not.

However, there is a good argument for millions of Indian slaves under British rule if you want to go down that road…

OK, let's go down that road. Millions of Indian slaves under the British rule which outlawed slavery in India, the slavery that had been inflicted on India by the Muslims who had conquered it earlier. What's your good argument for that?
 
Soldato
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Whether 'whites' and their countries became 'rich' primarily off the back of slavery is a difficult question to answer, and the topic of reparations is even more complex. What's undeniable is that Britain and her colonies did subjugate and enslave millions of people, and we're still dealing with the consequences today in many ways.

Remember virtually all the slaves were initially traded from other native Africans. The Europeans made the market place bigger, but they certainly didn't create it. They just exploited and expanded an already existing market.

Slavery at it's peak accounted for under 5% of the British economy, so while significant, it didn't make us that much richer. Some individuals got rich.


There was an interesting article which I can't find at the moment. :/
But it stated that a black person in the UK with direct descendants from Africa (not the Caribbean) were many times more likely to be descended from slave traders than than a white person in the UK.
As very few people in the UK actually owned slaves (or traded in).

Also when comparing number across significant time spans, to get a fair comparison you would need to weight it against the total world population at the time.
 
Soldato
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Personally I'm still waiting for reparations from the Romans for countless slaves taken. Or the Scandanavians for the countless people taken by the vikings. Apparently most of the population of Iceland, or the female half at least, is descended from people forcibly taken from these isles, mostly scotland and ireland. But that pales into the number taken from eastern europe so many slavs were taken that they become the generic word i.e. slav(e).

Its history. Its done. Can we move on now?
 
Caporegime
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There was an interesting article which I can't find at the moment. :/
But it stated that a black person in the UK with direct descendants from Africa (not the Caribbean) were many times more likely to be descended from slave traders than than a white person in the UK.
As very few people in the UK actually owned slaves (or traded in).

You could probably say the same about white Americans and African Americans, lots of white slave owners back in the day would have intercourse with female slaves and lots of African Americans have a certain % of European DNA - IIRC it is on average 25% European... Whereas plenty of white Americans are descended from Irish, Italians, Polish, Germans, Scots, Welsh, English etc.. who emigrated over there after slavery was abolished... not to mention that it wasn't exactly the whole population of whites during the time of slavery that actually owned slaves.

So the average African American is probably more likely descended from a slave owner than the average white American.
 
Soldato
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Stating "What's undeniable is that Britain and her colonies did subjugate and enslave millions of people" is wrong in several ways even if you were "following on" from someone who used the phrase "Britain, its colonies and successor nations". They were including "successor nations" within that phrase. You were not. They were referring to slavery, specifically slavery. You were not.

I’ve already stated that is what I meant, and that I should have been clearer. I obviously need a better editor. ;)

If I had originally typed “Britain, it’s colonies and successor nations…” would you still be questioning it? Because based on your comments, I have to draw the conclusion that you don't believe Britain subjugated many of the nations it absorbed into the Empire, and that Britain didn’t engage in the trading and owning of slaves. Or are you just questioning the numbers?

OK, let's go down that road. Millions of Indian slaves under the British rule which outlawed slavery in India, the slavery that had been inflicted on India by the Muslims who had conquered it earlier. What's your good argument for that?

Here’s quite a long Wiki entry about it:

Between 1772 and 1833, the British parliament debates, as recorded in Hansard confirm the existence of extensive slavery in India, primarily for Arabian and European colonial markets under the East India Company.[72] When Britain abolished slavery in its Empire, through Slavery Abolition Act 1833, it included a clause that allowed slavery inside India and enslavement of Indians for colonial markets operated by the East India Company.[73] Andrea Major notes,[74]

When the abolition did come into play in 1843, the officials that inadvertently used the term "slave" would be reprimanded, but the actual practices of servitude continued unchanged. Scholar Indrani Chatterjee has termed this "abolition by denial." In the rare cases when the anti-slavery legislation was enforced, it addressed the relatively smaller practices of export and import of slaves, but it did little to address the agricultural slavery that was pervasive inland. The officials in the Madras Presidency turned a blind eye to agricultural slavery claiming that it was a benign form of bondage that was in fact preferable to free labour.[75]

According to Sir Henry Bartle Frere (who sat on the Viceroy's Council), there were an estimated 8,000,000 or 9,000,000 slaves in India in 1841. In Malabar, about 15% of the population were slaves. Slavery was officially abolished in India by the Indian Slavery Act V. of 1843. Provisions of the Indian Penal Code of 1861 effectively abolished slavery in India by making the enslavement of human beings a criminal offense.[4][76][77][7]

Indentured labour system
After the United Kingdom abolished slavery by the mid 19th century, it introduced a new indentured labor system that scholars suggest was slavery by contract.[78][79][80]

In this new system, they were called indentured labourers. South Asians began to replace Africans previously brought as slaves, under this indentured labour scheme to serve on plantations and mining operations across the British empire.[81] The first ships carrying indentured labourers left India in 1836.[81] In the second half of the 19th century, indentured Indians were treated as inhumanely as the enslaved people previously had been. They were confined to their estates and paid a pitiful salary. Any breach of contract brought automatic criminal penalties and imprisonment.[81] Many of these were brought away from their homelands deceptively. Many from inland regions over a thousand kilometers from seaports were promised jobs, were not told the work they were being hired for, or that they would leave their homeland and communities. They were hustled aboard the waiting ships, unprepared for the long and arduous four-month sea journey. Charles Anderson, a special magistrate investigating these sugarcane plantations, wrote to the British Colonial Secretary declaring that with few exceptions, the indentured labourers are treated with great and unjust severity; plantation owners enforced work in plantations, mining and domestic work so harshly, that the decaying remains of immigrants were frequently discovered in fields. If labourers protested and refused to work, they were not paid or fed: they simply starved.[81][82]

*side note* those pesky Portuguese turned up again, and the Dutch.





Two interesting posts, thanks.
 
Man of Honour
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I’ve already stated that is what I meant, and that I should have been clearer. I obviously need a better editor. ;)

If I had originally typed “Britain, it’s colonies and successor nations…” would you still be questioning it? Because based on your comments, I have to draw the conclusion that you don't believe Britain subjugated many of the nations it absorbed into the Empire, and that Britain didn’t engage in the trading and owning of slaves. Or are you just questioning the numbers?

The numbers, as that was the point in question.

Here’s quite a long Wiki entry about it: ["it" being slavery in India under British rule]

I'm not counting the East India Company as Britain. Maybe I'm wrong about that, I'm not sure. It certainly wasn't officially Britain.
 
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