Put the bong down son - A few randon physics thoughts (probably completely wrong)

Caporegime
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no, the gravity is observable. The existence of dark matter is unproven.

Considering that gravity is something caused by the presence of matter, what do you think is causing the gravitational effects? It's commonly accepted nowadays that the universe is made of 5% baryonic matter, 25% dark matter and 70% dark energy.

AFAIK we can see an effect that has been attributed to "dark matter" but so far every experiment designed to reveal more about it has come up empty - when they really should have shown some signs. There is one attempt to map it using starlight but that isn't actually revealing anything we don't already know.

It might even be the phenomena itself is a mistaken understanding of something else.

None of the experiments so far have been expected to directly show the presence of dark matter.
 
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Soldato
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Dark Energy and Dark Matter are just currently theoretical placeholders to explain the observational differences that there is too much gravity in the universe compared to what our current model of understanding predicts.

Now whether that extra gravity is coming from WIMPs, super symmetry of string theory or a bleed through from extra dimensions or something else entirely no-one has thought of yet is to be discovered.

Though the gravity leaking through has been pretty much shelved now since the detection of the gravitationaI waves last year has discounted the existence of any extra spatial dimensions
 
Soldato
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Gravity is an effect of mass, so therefore, there IS extra matter which we cannot see, hence the term.
Considering that gravity is something caused by the presence of matter

the two are obviously related but a causal relationship? You assume its fact when it really isn't. We don't really know why gravity exists at all, why/how its so weak and why/how it can operate over such vast distances.
We are missing very large pieces of the puzzle.
 
Caporegime
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the two are obviously related but a causal relationship? You assume its fact when it really isn't. We don't really know why gravity exists at all, why/how its so weak and why/how it can operate over such vast distances.
We are missing very large pieces of the puzzle.

We don't need a full understanding of gravity to make very accurate predictions based on observations. General relativity is not perfect but is such a good model for explaining how gravity operates at infinite distances etc. that we can generally accept it as complete for most practical purposes.

While the nature of dark matter is unknown, it's existence is predicted mathematically, and observations such as gravitational lensing, the cosmic microwave background, and the structure of the observable universe provide strong evidence that there is lots of extra unseen matter in galaxies. There is no other scientifically credible explanation for the gravitational effects.
 
Soldato
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We don't need a full understanding of gravity to make very accurate predictions based on observations. General relativity is not perfect but is such a good model for explaining how gravity operates at infinite distances etc. that we can generally accept it as complete for most practical purposes.

While the nature of dark matter is unknown, it's existence is predicted mathematically, and observations such as gravitational lensing, the cosmic microwave background, and the structure of the observable universe provide strong evidence that there is lots of extra unseen matter in galaxies. There is no other scientifically credible explanation for the gravitational effects.

sure we have very good models, but not perfect models.
Newtons theory worked very well up to a point - modern theories work even better up to a point, and then they don't.
We certainly have something very close but something is missing - we don't have anything better and i don't know what the answer is but we can't rule out the possibility that we might be fundamentally wrong.
 
Caporegime
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No we can't, and quite frankly it would be awesome if we found out that we are fundamentally wrong as that would open up whole new areas of physics, but for the time being dark matter being a thing is generally accepted in the scientific community. :)
 
Wise Guy
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There's no reason to expect models to work at every scale. Phenomena comes out of how many probabilities are piled up underneath. They emerge from complexity. It's like trying to make sense of a neural network generated model when looking at the indivudual nodes, of course it wont make sense! And the model generated by interconnected networks wont make sense when looking at the individual network.
 
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People need to realise JUST how accurate and amazing Science really is.

Einstein over 100 years ago predicted gravitational lensing, AND gravitational waves. BOTH of which have been confirmed 100%, and the lensing we see now, (the extreme lensing) are commonly called Einstein Rings.

This just shows you that generally physics and theoretical physics is basically almost always on the right track, even MORE so these days with simulations able to adjust the parameters of the universe to track what effect dark matter had on the evolution of the structure of the universe. Theory predicts a graviton, negative mass, and negative energy, all of which I would not be surprised to be proven over time.

Even anti-matter was borne out of the maths suggesting there were two solutions, a negative and a positive, and lo and behold, we use anti-matter every single day now in medicine.
 
Associate
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We don't need a full understanding of gravity to make very accurate predictions based on observations. General relativity is not perfect but is such a good model for explaining how gravity operates at infinite distances etc. that we can generally accept it as complete for most practical purposes.

While the nature of dark matter is unknown, it's existence is predicted mathematically, and observations such as gravitational lensing, the cosmic microwave background, and the structure of the observable universe provide strong evidence that there is lots of extra unseen matter in galaxies. There is no other scientifically credible explanation for the gravitational effects.

What!
General Relativity is precise. Without using Relativity the satnav in a car would go wrong in minutes, since the clock on a satellite runs faster than that on Earth, as gravity is weaker
 
Man of Honour
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What!
General Relativity is precise. Without using Relativity the satnav in a car would go wrong in minutes, since the clock on a satellite runs faster than that on Earth, as gravity is weaker

You're both right - general relativity is not perfect because it fails at a smaller scale and therefore is not an accurate explanation of how the universe works, but it's correct on a larger scale and thus has a great deal of value as a predictive tool.

Roughly, we have two different and incompatible theories for explaining how the universe works - relativity and quantum theory. Each works on a different scale...but it's the same universe so the perfect theory would work on all scales. Therefore both are imperfect. Imperfect doesn't mean useless in this context. For example, Newtonian physics is still extremely useful in very many circumstances despite being technically wrong on any scale, because relativistic effects are negligable in very many circumstances.
 
Soldato
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My belief is that there are more dimensions than we can perceive.

Imagine we are living on a piece of paper and we can only look along the plane of the paper. Yet there is another piece of paper an inch above us also containing matter. That matter interacts with gravity, which crosses perpendicular to both pieces of paper. So we observe the gravitational effects, on our plane, of the matter we cant see but we'll never be able to see it or measure it.

Does this theory already have a name, Id be interested in reading up more on it if it does?
 
Man of Honour
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My belief is that there are more dimensions than we can perceive.

Imagine we are living on a piece of paper and we can only look along the plane of the paper. Yet there is another piece of paper an inch above us also containing matter. That matter interacts with gravity, which crosses perpendicular to both pieces of paper. So we observe the gravitational effects, on our plane, of the matter we cant see but we'll never be able to see it or measure it.

Does this theory already have a name, Id be interested in reading up more on it if it does?

Yes Carl Sagan did a video on it (and others).

EDIT: Though doesn't really touch on the interaction of matter via gravity, etc.
 
Soldato
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Yes Carl Sagan did a video on it (and others).

EDIT: Though doesn't really touch on the interaction of matter via gravity, etc.

Ah cool cheers, just watched one of his videos.

He describes a universe where our dimension is actually part of a fourth that we cant perceive. However my vision for it is that these additional dimensions lie in parallel with our own but certain elements, like gravity, can interact between them. Searching for parallel universe theories doesnt really help because im not for one second thinking there are multiple versions of me sitting in alternate realities, which is what those searches tend to bring up.
 
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Extra dimensions are quite likely, already with string theory we require 11 dimensions of different sorts to get it to work. "Particles" are not actually particles, but waves of probability, of effectively congealed pure energy in different Quantum Fields. Once you get your head around the fact that matter IS NOT PARTICLES, but actually waves, this is a big barrier to break down mentally.

It is not much of an extrapolation to consider string theory at the even deeper level is plausible. What a wonderful time for discovery. I feel very depressed for Einstein and the other greats, they must have imagined so much in the future, and they all knew that they would never live to see the progress and state of science they would have been able to forsee. Really sad. Not so sad for your average muppet who is only concerned about the opening hours of their local McDonalds, but for these great minds of the past, truly a shame.

Also a shame for me as I feel I have totally and utterly wasted my entire life, as it was only in the last few years that I have fallen in love with Astrophysics, Particle Physics, and the Quantum realm. What a shame we only get a pathetically short life.
 
Soldato
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Newtonian physics is not wrong, it just doesn't work well outside of its model. Similarly, neither are relativity and QM wrong, despite breaking down outwith their models in extreme circumstances, such as within singularities.

Expanding on the theories (as relativity did to Newtonian physics), doesn't invalidate the previous one. Fundamentally, the theories that physics have been working on for the past 300 years have never, ever, been wrong (they're all basically underpinned by Noether's theorem). That is why we can say with certainty that some things that we cannot observe directly, but can see through their actions on observable bodies combined with math describing them, are simply 'fact'.

Trying to observe them (like we did with gravitational waves) does two things. First, obviously, is the attempt to prove the theory with a repeatable and observable method (as is the staple of the scientific method). The second is to try and disprove it exists... because if we managed to invalidate the standard model, physics would get a whole lot more interesting!

Sadly though, the reality is it is absolutely bang on and we're just checking off entries in a list.
 
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This is a bong. I don't know how it came to be associated with creativity rather than sitting around consuming cookies and bad comedies, though.

bong.png

"Weed = creativity" is very much sarcasm, as during my weed-smoking days I sometimes thought I was being groundbreakingly creative/philosophical but I was really just talking nonsense. "Put the bong down" = "you're talking nonsense".

Anyway, quantum mechanics etc. are far beyond me (whilst sober, let alone high), so I'll get back to lurking.
 
Associate
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You're both right - general relativity is not perfect because it fails at a smaller scale and therefore is not an accurate explanation of how the universe works, but it's correct on a larger scale and thus has a great deal of value as a predictive tool.

Roughly, we have two different and incompatible theories for explaining how the universe works - relativity and quantum theory. Each works on a different scale...but it's the same universe so the perfect theory would work on all scales. Therefore both are imperfect. Imperfect doesn't mean useless in this context. For example, Newtonian physics is still extremely useful in very many circumstances despite being technically wrong on any scale, because relativistic effects are negligable in very many circumstances.
I.e. The unified theory, which has eluded everyone; even Hawking.
 
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