Why do planes not give off a tracking signal ?

chaparral · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:35

With the amount of great technology we have these days why are planes not fitted with something that gives off a signal of there location when they go down :confused:

I really no understand how something like this is not available or fitted to all planes these days.

This news here is what got me thinking of this
https://guernseypress.com/news/2019/01/25/missing-aircraft-search-is-brought-to-an-end/

StevieP · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:37

Black box transponder?

dowie · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:40

StevieP said:
Black box transponder?

Not sure if flight recorders are required for privately owned light aircraft.

StevieP · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:44

I thought all aircraft were required to have one? Perhaps not - my expertise stems entirely from movies!

Freakbro · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:45

There is no regulation for light aircraft to have flight recorders (Black boxes)

chaparral · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:47

StevieP said:
Black box transponder?

Not sure if they even work after a plane has gone down as there been quiet a few planes gone missing (including airliners)

Including this well know one
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/contact-lost-with-malaysia-airlines-plane.18585604/

StevieP · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:51

chaparral said:
Not sure if they even work after a plane has gone down as there been quiet a few planes gone missing (including airliners)

Yeah, nothing is indestructible I guess - my point to the OP was there is a solution - albeit its not infallible (or actually on every small plane it would appear!)

Bickaxe · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:52

I thought the black box was a recording device so that they can work out what went wrong when they find it.
Seems an oversight as ships have AIS in order to track them https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-0.5/centery:50.6/zoom:4

chaparral · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:57

Bickaxe said:
Seems an oversight as ships have AIS in order to track them https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-0.5/centery:50.6/zoom:4

But can they still pickup the signal from it if the boat sunk and was at the bottom of the ocean ?
Or does being under water completely block the signal :confused:

StevieP · 26 Jan 2019 at 10:59

I think they do have a tracking capability of sprts.

Taken from a random website:

Black boxes are fitted with an underwater locator beacon that starts emitting a pulse if its sensor touches water. They work to a depth of just over four kilometres, and can "ping" once a second for 30 days before the battery runs out, meaning MH370's black box stopped pinging around April 7, 2014. After Air France flight 447 crashed into the Atlantic Ocean, it took search teams two years to find and raise the black boxes. They provided valuable information about what actually happened prior to the crash

Bickaxe · 26 Jan 2019 at 11:03

chaparral said:
But can they still pickup the signal from it when the boat at the bottom of the ocean ?

Shouldn't need to. If a vessel is going down, the crew have enough time to send a distress signal and evacuate as it takes a while for a vessel to sink.
Very different for planes obviously due to the speed but I would have thought they have something to show last known location.

Terminal_Boy · 26 Jan 2019 at 11:04

StevieP said:
I thought all aircraft were required to have one? Perhaps not - my expertise stems entirely from movies!

No requirement for black boxes in light aircraft. Transponders are only required in certain flight modes for a sub-set of light aircraft.

Personally, I’m not getting aboard anything on the water or flying above it that only has one engine.

Django x2 · 26 Jan 2019 at 12:28

The recent changes to commercial aircraft include, ironically, gps trackers, which provide instant real time location of a flight. Currently, those communications via primary radar can be 15 minutes apart when the plane is flying over the ocean, for example.

Once that becomes mainstream, certainly incidents like MH370 will unlikely happen again.

Fourstar · 26 Jan 2019 at 12:31

Bickaxe said:
I thought the black box was a recording device so that they can work out what went wrong when they find it.
Seems an oversight as ships have AIS in order to track them https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-0.5/centery:50.6/zoom:4

AIS was originally designed as a collision avoidance system. As such they broadcast a local radio signal that like a marine VHF radio is limited to line of sight range. Most of the shipping data displayed on Marine Traffic is gathered using land based receiver stations. Satellite tracking is also available but offers less frequent updates and are degraded by or completely blocked by adverse weather.

There is a good chance that offshore during a storm there will be no AIS location data available.

chaparral said:
But can they still pickup the signal from it if the boat sunk and was at the bottom of the ocean ?
Or does being under water completely block the signal

It won't work at all underwater. The reason for an underwater beacon on aircraft is so the flight data recorders can be recovered in order to work out what caused the crash.

What will actually locate the survivors is an EPIRB. Normally a portable, battery powered emergency beacon that can be picked up satellite and is actively monitored. Aircraft have similar devices though they probably have a different name.

The situation is changing for aircraft. The final batch of Iridium NEXT communication satellites was launched earlier this month. They will provide the backbone of a truly global aircraft tracking system (ADS-B).

Nutella33 · 26 Jan 2019 at 12:44

Bickaxe said:
I thought the black box was a recording device so that they can work out what went wrong when they find it.

The 'Black box' is a recorder. They have underwater beacons on it to aid finding them and are actually bright orange so they are easier to spot. They record audio/G/flight control stuff for crash recovery.

IFF and GPS can of course be used to track aircraft locations but they can easily be turned off but have their issues like @Django x2 and @Fourstar which we are addressing due to technological advances and previous incidents.

Scuzi · 26 Jan 2019 at 12:56

The last Malibu I flew in had an ELT but I thibk (it was a long time ago) it had to be manually activated. The aircraft in question may have had a similar ELT or it may not have had one at all.

Ditching into a freezing sea with large swells at night is rarely going to end well, ELT or not.

touch · 26 Jan 2019 at 14:56

Django x2 said:
The recent changes to commercial aircraft include, ironically, gps trackers, which provide instant real time location of a flight. Currently, those communications via primary radar can be 15 minutes apart when the plane is flying over the ocean, for example.

Once that becomes mainstream, certainly incidents like MH370 will unlikely happen again.

I thought MH370 had all the hardware onboard for GPS tracking but Malaysian Airlines don't pay the service subscription to have that data transmitted via satellite?

edit: actually, it may have been somebody on board the plane who manually turned it off. Either way, the system was installed and available on MH370

Django x2 · 26 Jan 2019 at 15:27

touch said:
I thought MH370 had all the hardware onboard for GPS tracking but Malaysian Airlines don't pay the service subscription to have that data transmitted via satellite?

edit: actually, it may have been somebody on board the plane who manually turned it off. Either way, the system was installed and available on MH370

Yep, I was referring to the fact that they'll be non tamper and mandatory across all flights and tracked constantly.