Shiny Side Up poster

Resident

Resident

Resident

Soldato
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I see signs regularly warning of bikers & providing warnings to them.

However one in particular caught my eye and I kinda take issue with it. It feels like it's trying to blame-shift when a specific type of collision occurs between another vehicle and a biker.

It's this one:


If I'm turning, I'm indicating and if I'm indicating, particularly to my offside then nothing, especially a 'vulnerable road user', should be attempting to overtake.
It's a reckless maneuver on the part of the overtaker but I feel this poster infers that I should be making allowances for that.

Am I wrong?
 
Have an accident and be in the right or not have an accident even though someone else is in the wrong/ should be paying more attention ......
 
rodenal said:
Have an accident and be in the right or not have an accident even though someone else is in the wrong/ should be paying more attention ......
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that an extra look isn't a good thing, my point is that I feel the poster should be aimed at the errant rider rather than the turning vehicle
 
Its telling you to be observant, considering you should be using your mirrors by doing mirror, signal, manoeuvre then how can it be shifting the blame? The fact that most drivers are incompetent and don’t use mirrors often enough and don’t signal most of the time, it needs reinforcing.
 
Resident said:
I'm not saying that an extra look isn't a good thing, my point is that I feel the poster should be aimed at the errant rider rather than the turning vehicle
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I can see what you're getting at but if I'm honest I don't really think it matters, I doubt most people are processing the detail
 
With these things it is always a bit of both and doesn't just extend to cyclists or bikers. Far too many people, including myself, in all types of vehicles put themselves in bad positions either unthinking or uncaring and it isn't always easy to read every situation.

Had a few instances before the lockdown of say in heavy traffic where I'm inching up in a queue and indicating to take a right turn and had a biker sitting alongside my rear wheel and it is like either get back a bit or get past me FFS! I'm sure though in most cases they just didn't think rather than being inconsiderate.

It is very easy to get out of the habit of checking and doubling checking the appropriate mirror(s) before a turn - I try to get it down as an instinct but not just done for the sake of it without actually registering what I'm looking at and usually do but sometimes if I've had a long day at work, etc. it can all too easily slip if I'm not careful.

This is also where high viz really makes a difference and I don't have much sympathy even if they "shouldn't" have to do with cyclists/bikers in a drab colour setup then bleating when someone didn't see them or saw them late when some bright colours can easily mean even someone observant will likely notice them a crucial second or more earlier (even if it likely won't change the story much with those who are complacent or just don't care).
 
I don't see the problem with the sign.

If you've turned your vehicle in blissful ignorance then you're a menace.

It's mostly going to apply to bikes because larger vehicles have much less opportunity to overtake without a lane for it.
 
Protect the most vulnerable road users.

I cycle assuming no one can see me, but even so the number of doors opening, last minute decisions to turn right and frankly people not indicating is frightening.

Indicating does not automatically give you right of way. Look in your mirrors.

Of course overtaking someone who is indicating to turn right is reckless, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t look.
 
I was knocked off while filtering on the right of a queue of traffic by a car driver. I didn't see an indicator, she swore it was blinking. Both of us paying more attention could have prevented it. This was 25 years ago.

Nothing much has changed, except road warriors seem to be more self-entitled and belligerent than ever, whether they're cyclists, mopeds, bikers, car drivers, delivery van drivers or truckers.

It's just a sign, and if it reminds you to check your mirror and stops you having to watch as someone flies over your wing on their way to a bone crunching landing then it's done its job.
 
Weekend before the one just gone I got stuck in a mile long queue of traffic backed up on both lanes of a dual carriageway (caused by a couple of crashes the other side of town blocking the roads out) - actually been over a year since the last time I had that happen - out of nowhere some kid couldn't have been much older than 12 or so went flying down the middle on a BMX/stunt type bike - I'd glanced back a moment before and didn't see him so no idea where he came from (possibly decamped from a vehicle behind maybe). At other times there was 2 other cyclists and a motorbike filtering but I saw them coming 100s of yards back and they were a bit more sensible.

Anyhow at some points people had been opening their doors, etc. could easily have ended badly for the kid.
 
Bear said:
Its telling you to be observant, considering you should be using your mirrors by doing mirror, signal, manoeuvre then how can it be shifting the blame? The fact that most drivers are incompetent and don’t use mirrors often enough and don’t signal most of the time, it needs reinforcing.
Click to expand...
Exactly this TBH.

My guilty pleasure is dashcam videos on YouTube and the main reason I watch them is to continually amaze myself at the lengths some of the dashcammers will go to to make an issue of someone making a mistake. Car in the wrong lane on a roundabout starts indicating to move left "Oh no you don't" and they accelerate into what was an empty lane. What is the point?!

Anyway, tangent aside I spend a bit of time on the roads on two wheels (of the pedal powered variety) and I'm happy to keep an eye out for others in the hope that they do the same for me... even if the manoeuvre they are currently doing is on the stupid and reckless side.
 
Vaguely related: The other day I was preparing to turn right out of a side road. There were two cars approaching from my right, but both were indicating to turn into the road I was coming out of.

The road behind them looked clear - but just before I made the choice to pull out, I realised there was a motorbike behind the second car, which was going straight on.

Now - if I'd pulled out and hit him (or more accurately, he'd have hit me) it would have been totally my fault. But there are things he could have done to minimise the chances of that happening. (In that the car he was behind was an SUV, he was right behind it, towards its right hand quarter making himself all but invisible to anyone ahead.)

I see this situation the same as the one you're talking about. No-one is saying the potential accident is the car drivers fault. But they can do something to make it less likely.
 
A couple of years ago im queing in a single line of traffic, start indicating right as thankfully the road I want is just a few car lengths ahead now. I get to where I can turn and just waiting for a gap in the oncoming traffic so I can turn right into the road. Then I hear a horn beep almost in my ear, startled I look round and a guy on a scooter has been overtaking the long que of traffic, seen me indicating and honked to stop me turning so he can overtake me as well. When I googled it afterwards I couldnt find a definative answer of who's in the right, as I read it, he has right of way in as much as, if I turn and hit him, its my fault.
 
Obviously there are exceptions but I find most motorcyclists to be decent riders. I did also take a motorcycle test in the 1990's and failed it. I never took it again but am learning to ride again now. But one thing I did find was how much better a driver it made me to experience what it's like on a motorbike. If you're on a bike then you're going to come off worst in a crash so most riders want to avoid that. It also gave me a basic understanding of where a motorbike is likely to be.

One type of road user I do often have problems with, however, are young scooter riders with food delivery boxes on the back and riding L plates. They are often inexperienced, haven't had to pass a theory test and are under a lot of time pressure to complete their delivery. I'd seen some shocking riding from them. It still shocks me that you can ride a 125 without ever learning the highway code and simply passing a few hours of very basic training.

But as I've got older I've come to just let poor drivers/riders/cyclists get out of my way and leave them to it. As long as I can avoid an entanglement, regardless of whether they are wrong and I am right, then that's a successful drive. People make mistakes and that includes me of course. Let them go. Drive defensively.

It also surprises me how little a lot of people check their mirrors. yes I will check my mirror before manouvering. But I'll constantly be checking them anyway so there are hopefully no surprises.
 
Riding a motorbike taught me to always check my mirrors, but that was mostly to make sure there weren't blue lights flashing behind me :D And yes it teaches you to read the road; surface, traffic, obstacles, children and gatso's in a way that lounging in my car with the aircon and stereo on never does.

I completely agree that moped riders are a different breed from motorbike riders. Whether it's the invulnerability cloak of youth, inexperience, or just the time pressures of the work, the deliveroo crashhat wearing maniacs are a sight to behold sometimes.
 
Building Candy said:
A couple of years ago im queing in a single line of traffic, start indicating right as thankfully the road I want is just a few car lengths ahead now. I get to where I can turn and just waiting for a gap in the oncoming traffic so I can turn right into the road. Then I hear a horn beep almost in my ear, startled I look round and a guy on a scooter has been overtaking the long que of traffic, seen me indicating and honked to stop me turning so he can overtake me as well. When I googled it afterwards I couldnt find a definative answer of who's in the right, as I read it, he has right of way in as much as, if I turn and hit him, its my fault.
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I had an accident about 10 years ago in a similar situation, I was waiting to turn right, and holding up traffic behind me - queue of 2-3 cars had built up, when a bike/moped decided to overtake them as I was in the middle of my manoeuvre and ploughed straight into my rear quarter :rolleyes: (yes I checked my mirror - he wasn't visible when I started to move as he was behind the cars.

After almost a year of back-and-forth with the insurance company, it ended up going in my favour.
 
This reminds me of a TV campaign years ago regarding similar which showed a sequence from the driver's POV where they approached a roundabout, basically did everything correctly (indicating, mirrors etc) and there was a motorbike in the mirrors. The bike was weaving from side to side so the POV showed the driver seeing the bike multiple times in different mirrors. Predictably the car then turned and the bike tried to overtake and got wasted even though the car driver had signalled in good time, and then came the message about being aware of motorbikes. I found it ridiculous that the sequence seemed to place the blame on the driver, but there we go.
I don't think the thing in the OP is as bad though. I mean, everyone should be checking for everyone else. But we seem to have this funny way in society of absolving the more vulnerable parties in incidents of any blame, which I just don't think is helpful. As a cyclist who used to ride into London Docklands from the suburbs every day, I know a thing or two about protecting myself on the roads. Yeah people should be looking out for me (and overwhelmingly I'd say that they did, which pleasantly surprised me), but if you can't be sensible in order to keep yourself alive then you shouldn't be on a bike. Whenever I've read a story about a cyclist getting killed in London traffic, I generally end up thinking "WTF were they doing in that position?". Ironically I did end up getting taken out by a car, in a situation in which I wasn't in a dangerous position and was sure that they must have seen me.
 
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