EV general discussion

[Haggisman]

You're using the wrong app if you're only discovering a problem at a charger when you get there on a long.... and that happening to you a lot.

I tend to concentrate on the road rather than checking on an app every 5 minutes to see if the charger I've planned into my journey is still available

Jokes aside, that doesn't really help - if the kids need to go, they need to go. If there are no chargers where they need to go then we still need to stop again, just to charge.

Likewise, if the place we want to stop is showing as broken/in use (e.g. somewhere like Tebay for lunch), then we either have to stop somewhere **** for lunch, or again, make a second stop just to charge.

Your maths is out though. 5 mins every Friday is 4.30 hrs. It's not 5 mins either. Often you fill a car you wander into the shop. And you'll still have stop with the kids on a regular basis anyway. I don't pass a petrol station on my commute it's a detour and it's not unusual to queue at a petrol station.

The maths is irrelevant, be it 5 minutes, 10 minutes, whatever. The point is that X minutes on a normal Friday afternoon is less valuable to me than an extra hour on a day out with my family, even if those X minutes total up to significantly more than that hour. (and if we're talking man-hours, then 30 minutes of charging with 4 people waiting is actually worth 2 hours of just 1 person waiting).

I don't have kids, sadly, and I do appreciate it can make things more difficult but when I was young we were usually stopping anyway because at least one of the four of us would be getting antsy if weren't allowed out to run around about every couple of hours.

As above - it's not the fact you have to stop that's the issue - you're completely correct in that a long journey will involve stopping. My point is that unless those stops coincide with being able to charge, then it does add extra time and inconvenience.

Once every service station has 10+ rapids with 99% uptime, then this will become a non-issue, but at present, that is far from the reality.

And charging a car while you're at he beach should be an ideal charging situation -- although it's probably not there yet, anyway.

Absolutely - we're getting there, but unfortunately most places we've visited don't have them, and the ones which do have maybe 4-5 chargers. Thinking about somewhere like Barmouth (purely because it's the last place we visited), in a car park with 450 spaces, there are 8 chargers (2 of which are rapids) - let's round that up to 2%. Google reckons 5% of cars in the UK are EVs, so we're already 3% short, and the percentage of EVs is increasing. Obviously not everyone who visits is going to want/need to charge, but a good number will, so clearly there aren't going to be enough chargers for everyone who needs one.

Which leads on to this point:

I spend a lot of time in hotels unfortunately and one of the things I notice as a casual observer is A) how poor the charging provision is at them and B) how few EV drivers actually seem to use them anyway.

Holiday Inn Express mid week I think it's fair to say that the majority of the cars in the car park are on business trips. Yet the token 2 charge points often sit with one or both unused while the car park has a dozen or more EVs parked up.

My assumption is that people see the token offering and think they won't bother relying on that and make sure they arrive with enough to get straight on with their day in the morning.

Agree completely - if you NEED to charge, you'd be a fool to rely on being able to do so at a location which only has a couple of chargers which may or may not be working. Far safer to charge en-route when you can, than take the risk of being stuck looking for a charger when you're supposed to be somewhere else.

That wasn't really the point, I guess, but it still seems like a classic example of a cognitive bias towards worrying about single big costs over dozens of smaller costs that add up to a lot more.

You're still missing the point - as I addressed above, some time is more valuable than other.

I think the last bit is still the problem.

Most EV's can do the trip to most weekend destinations but as so few places have chargers at them after a full day out with the family you still need to make another extra stop on your journey home

Last weekend the wife and daughter went out for a meal with family about 2.5 hours away, my EV would make it there no problem but not there and back. The pub that they chose didn't have any chargers so if she'd have taken my car (of if i was going to) we'd have to stop off somewhere extra for 30 minutes to have enough charge to get home.

That's the biggest bit missing of the puzzle for me still, there's lots of places pre covid that i used to visit about 2 hours plus away and still only about 1 of the 10 has a charger at the actual thing i would be visiting so i'd need to make an extra stop off on the way back which isn't ideal, especially with a family in the car who all just want to get home.

I don't really want more super ultra rapid chargers, i want several 7kw chargers in the car parks of attractions where my car will be sat doing nothing for several hours.

Agree completely, 2-3 chargers in a seaside town/shopping centre/cinema/leisure complex/etc. with thousands of visitors every day is worse than pointless. Not only does it not even come close to catering for the requirement, but it's going to be a wasted expense because they'll barely get used, since people won't be confident in relying on them to charge.

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination saying that EVs are useless/only work for limited cases/etc. - I've been driving one for the last 6 years - but anyone trying to claim they don't add an extra level of inconvenience is either lying, or only looking at their own very specific use case.

 

[OspreyO]

I never said it was common for everyone but it is common to me and lots of people who live somewhere rural.

The trip to that specific pub lunch may be only a couple of times a year but did you see the other trips i do regularly? They're all pretty much the same.

It's an incredibly common journey for people around here to visit Liverpool, Chester or Manchester for some shopping or entertainment on the weekend and that's an easy 2 hours and 100+ miles each way.

I dunno what your point is. You originally seemed to suggesting there's not enough AC chargers when visiting pubs in the middle of nowhere. I dunno where that going now I assume there isn't a problem getting a charger in Manchester or Liverpool.

I dunno what the strategy is in the UK. But where I am they prioritize DC charging hubs over AC because they can service more vehicles than AC chargers for the same resources. Cost & Electricity supply. When the DC network has better coverage they intend going back and filling out the AC network.

AS someone else said I think most places hotels and theme parks don't leverage AC charging to create business. They see it as hassle with no return. Whereas that hotel I posted has 50 chargers and discounts for EV drivers. But it's all changing rapidly. Again can't speak for UK or Wales but we are seeing a lot of new chargers.

 

[VincentHanna]

Anecdotal, but I find public DC charging almost seemless now.

I had a few years of driving in 2022 and 2023 where finding broken chargers or just 1 charger, that was already being used, was very common and I would end up driving to 5 different spots and they would be in naff places like a random industrial estate or once at a race track (that was broken)

Its true I don't drive to rural Wales, but I don't recall having any issues public charging for some time now

 

[Kenai]

There are definitely some odd decisions around charging planning IMO - one that stuck out to me the other day, I went to a park and ride - the sort of place you park up in for several hours to go shopping or go to work even - which has three 50kW chargers installed - even a 100kWh battery could be charged from nearly empty to 100% in about 2 hours. But why? Who is using a park and ride that takes 20 minutes to get into town and 20 minutes to get back for only 2 hours total? If you're installing 150kW worth of charging capacity at a facility where people are probably parking for 4 or 5 hours if not more, why not throw in a dozen 11kW chargers rather than three 50kW chargers?

 

[VincentHanna]

Presumably it's near an A road or motorway? Might be designed more for people to fast charge and drive away, than for people using the park and ride service.

 

[Junglist]

In this thread we argue about everything.

Thread? The entire forum you mean

 

[Kenai]

Presumably it's near an A road or motorway? Might be designed more for people to fast charge and drive away, than for people using the park and ride service.

It is, but then there's also half a dozen Tesla chargers a mile or two up the road, a few 100kW+ InstaVolts on the other side of the road, loads of 350kW chargers 20 minutes up the motorway etc.

 

[sovietspybob]

I dunno what your point is. You originally seemed to suggesting there's not enough AC chargers when visiting pubs in the middle of nowhere. I dunno where that going now I assume there isn't a problem getting a charger in Manchester or Liverpool.

I dunno what the strategy is in the UK. But where I am they prioritize DC charging hubs over AC because they can service more vehicles than AC chargers for the same resources. Cost & Electricity supply. When the DC network has better coverage they intend going back and filling out the AC network.

AS someone else said I think most places hotels and theme parks don't leverage AC charging to create business. They see it as hassle with no return. Whereas that hotel I posted has 50 chargers and discounts for EV drivers. But it's all changing rapidly. Again can't speak for UK or Wales but we are seeing a lot of new chargers.

I was just trying to reply to you saying that my use case isnt common, a 2+ hour drive to somewhere with no charging facilities. I was trying to say that a lot of people do have that issue, especially from rural communities.

Also i think AC chargers would be far easier and cheaper to install for most places as they don't require huge electrical upgrades and grid connections.

Most businesses which will already have a decent 3 phase supply so if they put in say 6 or 8 load balanced 7KW chargers im sure that'd be an order of magnitude cheaper than putting in a 100KW DC charger on site.

More DC is definitely important but i do feel having lots more low power AC would really unlock EV's for a huge number of people.

There are definitely some odd decisions around charging planning IMO - one that stuck out to me the other day, I went to a park and ride - the sort of place you park up in for several hours to go shopping or go to work even - which has three 50kW chargers installed - even a 100kWh battery could be charged from nearly empty to 100% in about 2 hours. But why? Who is using a park and ride that takes 20 minutes to get into town and 20 minutes to get back for only 2 hours total? If you're installing 150kW worth of charging capacity at a facility where people are probably parking for 4 or 5 hours if not more, why not throw in a dozen 11kW chargers rather than three 50kW chargers?

Exactly this, in my example above if i go to say Liverpool for the day i don't want to plug into a 150kw charger, i want something slower which i can be plugged into for the 5 hours i'm there mooching around so i don't have to go out of my way and stop again.

 

[jpaul]

if its like the cambridge park and ride off of A14 you need a high power charger for serving both those on a splash and dash out of business/commute hours and for daily folks(with idle fees ?)

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[Kenai]

Exactly this, in my example above if i go to say Liverpool for the day i don't want to plug into a 150kw charger, i want something slower which i can be plugged into for the 5 hours i'm there mooching around so i don't have to go out of my way and stop again.

I do think there's still too much fixation on trying to throw super powerful chargers absolutely everywhere and then selling everyone on the idea they can charge up in 20 minutes, rather than sowing the seeds of behavioural change towards lots of 'little and often' type charging.

People would (eventually) learn to be far less worried about needing to blast 50 or 60kWh into the car as fast as possible (outside of obvious demand cases like long distance travelling, so yes, motorway services are clearly ideal for fast charging) if everywhere they went they could access 7kW chargers - stick 7kWh in the car whilst you're in Tesco for an hour, add 20kWh whilst you (or the wife) are shopping on the high street for three hours etc.

 

[VincentHanna]

I'm never in a supermarket long enough to bother hooking up the free 7kw chargers.

 

[Kenai]

I'm never in a supermarket long enough to bother hooking up the free 7kWh chargers.

Great but a lot of people are.

It's just one example of where I think the entire industry needs to try and push people's thinking (more so those who can't home charge) in the little and often direction rather than continue to crash head first into the idea that charging must work like filling up with liquid fuel and be done once a week in one go in as little time as possible. That approach will never work at full scale, it's not manageable and the sooner we pivot to 'you can top up a bit virtually anywhere you go' the better.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I use the motorway chargers for 7kWh.

Only need to be there about 5 minutes

 

[VincentHanna]

I use the motorway chargers for 7kWh.

Only need to be there about 5 minutes

Eh? That would give you .58 of a KW

 

[Kenai]

Eh? That would give you .58 of a KW

You're using kW and kWh the wrong way round and he's poking fun at that, because a motorway charger will add 7kWh in a matter of minutes, charging at over 100kW.

 

[VincentHanna]

Ah yes, whoops!

 

[Journey]

I do think there's still too much fixation on trying to throw super powerful chargers absolutely everywhere and then selling everyone on the idea they can charge up in 20 minutes, rather than sowing the seeds of behavioural change towards lots of 'little and often' type charging.

Goes back to the fundamental - learning something new is hard - mentality that people have when considering EV's in general. If you change as little as possible then people have familiarity, and they feel more comfortable with the change. Look at people that, just want a Golf but with a battery, no touch screens and need to charge in 10 minutes once a week.

It is going to take lots more years to get enough people to create the community knowledge that you are asking for, let alone the chargers. I said it before, but until business need to have chargers to win business, then most will not bother and that means there needs to be many more EVs on the road for that to occur, then more people will do little and often.

 

[OspreyO]

I've heard it said you can rotate a lot more people through a DC charger with a few cables and switch an over stay fee and fine. Than you can having a bunch of AC chargers that people will block for an entire day (and night).

I'm going to assume a DC charger is much more profitable than a AC charger. Despite the higher costs.

 

[OspreyO]

So while we'd all like to sit on a destination charger for hours because it's convenient it might not be the optimal use of the infrastructure.

If destinations see it as means to attract business that would be great.

 

[lordrobs]

I'm not sure how you can create knowledge around a charging scenario that doesn't exist yet. Going back to my hotel example, if I was on a work trip and the 200 room hotel I'm staying at has 4 7kW chargers it isn't even going to factor into my consideration. I'm going to work on the assumption that they won't be available and stop en route on a rapid.

If it had 50 chargers I'd be confident I would be in luck, and that 50 has the same power demand as a single 350kW rapid.*

At some point there has to be a critical mass behind a behaviour shift, you can't expect people to get on board the hypothetical.

On the hotels front, I honestly think that the first of the major chains that nails EV charging at scale is going to do very well out of it, for business use at least. I currently pay £10 just to park at most hotels. I couldn't give a toss, it's on expenses. As would a £20 charge to guarantee a charge point or a £40+ 'all in' charge for, well, charge

ROI on those 7kW points wouldn't be too excessive at those rates and that's ignoring the extra draw for all the company car drivers who may be tempted to jump ship and stay somewhere else.

*Pick your own numbers, my example was just for easy maths sake.