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Are AMD defeated ?

Soldato
Joined
15 Mar 2007
Posts
3,603
Watching the recent release of Phenom with interest shows that at 2.3 and 2.2 Ghz and even with a new chipset and its new feature such as PCIe 2 and HTT 3 canot make this baby sing against Intel as much had been hoped.

Dual quad core change anything for AMD?
Is a quad core CPU not represented very well by current benchmarks?
Is the Intel 6600 better value than the Phenom presently or will four cores make it a better purchase?
Are there no quad core benchmarks or is it all a matter of single apps running across multiple cores or mutiple apps running across multiple cores
Even if AMD get out a 3 Ghz part soon will it be enough.

Is anyone now confused by benchmarks or are we all just games players wanting to get the best fps regardless?
 
Unless you're rendering video or folding there is no need for quad core at this time. Get a faster dual core and graphics card.
 
Unless you're rendering video or folding there is no need for quad core at this time. Get a faster dual core and graphics card.

Precisely and when the time comes there will be new MB's to support the amd chips,

Personally i believe the hardware is well more advanced then software at the moment but people like having specialist hardware.

I can do everything i want on my 1.8ghz sempron, although i did like the 3ghz dual core celeron i had :)
 
*Sigh*

Part of me hopes you're baiting, but hey - I have time to kill.

AMD are not defeated, neither will they keel over and die. Somebody, somewhere will always stump up the cash for them to plod along, purely because they have such massively valuable assets. If that means changing market sector, then great.

However, that would be a nightmare for us. One big chip manufacturer? Can you imagine how expensive chips would become as a result?

Server markets don't care about SuperPi, overclocking or games. They want their hardware to run well and reliably. Bottom line? AMD does that just as well as Intel. And considering most servers I see aren't replaced more than every three years (at best), the IT bods aren't going to be worrying about anything at this point in time.

Now how many times am I going to have to cut and paste this response into threads about "AMD sinking/going under/dying/drowning/bursting into flames/going bankrupt/insolvent/etc.?"
 
and its easier to upgrade for servers. AMD will make money, just as they do in the low end graphics market.
plus a lot of benchmarks seem to have a memory controller problem (check the thread just below this) so i wouldnt worry to much.

as Mrthingyx says. the EU will pump money into them, and they have just sold a load of stock for 650million.
 
They aren't, although the ongoing ATI southbridge problems (still rubbish USB\Firewire performance) and the Phenom launch are disappointing. However, they're still in my books for low-end home systems...which is where the bulk of the market is.
 
AMD won't die, they just may have to bow out gracefully form the super-high-end enthusiast arena. I see problems with the amount they can pump into R&D, and don't forget that whereas before they could pump all of their budget into researching CPU technology, the acquisition of ATI has meant that they now have to split their R&D and development costs over two seperate fields, CPU's/chipsets, and GPU's.

On the GPU front compare this with Nvidia who can focus all or the vast majority of their resources on GPU's and thus devleop/change new and faster architectures much quicker. Then on the CPU/chipset front compare Intel with their comparatively limitless resources who can pump obscene amounts into developing their CPU and chipset tech, and thus keep ahead of AMD by a considerable margin, at least now and in the future now that they have an incredibly strong architecture to work on. And the upcoming Nehalem? Scarily, scarily quick by all accounts, I genuinely can't see AMD having the resources to counter it. They are being attacked on two fronts by two superior companies who can focus all of their resources on their specific market areas.

In summary I don't think AMD will ever recover properly in either sector, their resources are now too thin, and they are making a thumping loss, the fact they've just had to sell 8% of the company and filed an SEC report showing huge deficits is a very telling sign of the position they are in now. I see Intel/NV sewing up the expensive enthusiast/high-end market, and AMD concentrating on the mid/value segment and making a profit. :(
 
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errm, they are backwards compatible, ht3.0 isn't actually offering massive performance boost, probably better scaling of the 4th core. if you take a intel quad core and run 1, 2, 3 and then 4 instances of superpi, even just 1mb, the 4th instance doesn't scale as well as the rest, giving a drop in performance per core. but, in reality you never see that.

fact is, phenom's will always be cheaper than intel. intel want a competitor, because it gives them someone to market/fight against, someone to beat and look better against.

in reality, you can't tell the difference between a semi decent dual core, and a super clocked quad. you buy what you buy. dell can market a £20 cheaper quad core on an overall lower spec'd comp at £100 cheaper, but that lets them say quad core at lower price point, which is good for them, so a £145 quad is very good for them.

the thing is, i'm an elitist in the sense someone mentioned, i like top kit, but just as much to play with getting best performance out of it. i can quite frankly have as much fun overclocked a q6600 and a sempron 30Mhz, maybe more if i can overclock it better. i want a phenom as its new, new things to do with it, set up a system with a 4 core max clock, a 2 core max clock with 2 super downclocked cores. a 4 core ultra silent download setup and a single core, quiet as possible film watching setup. its new, i like to play with hardware thats it.

in reality, i can't see a difference right now with my 2.4Ghz q6600 to when its running at 4Ghz, except in 3dmark and superpi, i run them for stability checking rather than score, also to see what settings are best overall for my system. i won't see a difference between this at 4Ghz and a new phenom at stock either.

I fully support people who use a rig for 3dwork, rendering work, design work that actually use power to spend money on anything they want, and intel will be faster for rendering for now, in general, some apps are clock for clock the same as phenom, for instance x264 encoding phenom is clock for clock very very good performance.

but if we took a poll we'd find the amount of people that do dvd encodes in the 1% range, and the ones who do 3d design work in the 1% aswell.

the rest won't see a difference, but amd and intel will see the difference. amd need the money more, thats not a good enough reason for me though, but that i can have a gaming rig thats identical, and at the same time help secure amd's future, which gives intel competition which will keep intel moving forwards and dropping prices, and in turn do the same to AMD, is great for everyone.
 
AMD won't die, they just may have to bow out gracefully form the super-high-end enthusiast arena. I see problems with the amount they can pump into R&D, and don't forget that whereas before they could pump all of their budget into researching CPU technology, the acquisition of ATI has meant that they now have to split their R&D and development costs over two seperate fields, CPU's/chipsets, and GPU's.

On the GPU front compare this with Nvidia who can focus all or the vast majority of their resources on GPU's and thus devleop/change new and faster architectures much quicker. Then on the CPU/chipset front compare Intel with their comparatively limitless resources who can pump obscene amounts into developing their CPU and chipset tech, and thus keep ahead of AMD by a considerable margin, at least now and in the future now that they have an incredibly strong architecture to work on. And the upcoming Nehalem? Scarily, scarily quick by all accounts, I genuinely can't see AMD having the resources to counter it.

In summary I don't think AMD will ever recover properly in either sector, their resources are now too thin, and they are making a thumping loss, the fact they've just had to sell 8% of the company and filed an SEC report showing huge deficits is a very telling sign of the position they are in now. I see Intel/NV sewing up the expensive enthusiast/high-end market, and AMD concentrating on the mid/value segment and making a profit. :(


their position hasn't changed greatly in a decade, they've always been in debt, yet generated large and increasing turnover. to compete in these kinds of battles requires large investment which means massive debt at first. but while the debts are massive, the company has a MUCH bigger future potential earnings than well, most companies around. intels turn over is immense, and in the future amd can hope to be making similar amounts. they will go through another 5-10 years at least of massive debt and expansion, but at some point get to a level where say they have 10 fabs, make 10 times the chips they do now. but when they hit that level they get rid of a lot of problems. for instance, switching to 65nm for intel is a case of shutting one of many fabs down, throwing money at it, and having it up and working quickly, then doing another one, all the while with production dropping maybe 5-10% for a month or two. for amd with 2-3 main fabs, that would be closer to a third drop in output for a while. they've hit their hardest period right now, getting contracts with dell means a minimum number of chips a year really, which in turn means that downtime is even harder on AMD.

they couldn't afford, literally, to change all fabs to 65nm, only to change them over to barcelona shortly afterwards. lower chips per waifer but guarenteed quota filling isn't ideal, but means they keep contracts. more chips per waifer, but having 2-3 months where they might be so short on chips that they could even risk losing contracts with the likes of Dell is simply not doable.

once they get to a certain level, size, and production capability those problems go away, completely. i suspect amd will sell more shares over the next 2-3 years, and get a lot more capacity somewhere/how, a deal with tsmc seems fairly likely at some point in the future too.

but the fact is, if they can get another 15% market share, considering the market will increase a lot in the next decade as more countries in the world get to western levels of tech levels and computer use, that will be massive.

as for investment in R&D, aquiring ati makes no difference really. in general both companies separately would input a certain amount of profits into R&D, those profits are the same with companies together or apart. however apart not only chip design, but materials, silicon, manufacturing and future ideas for making chips are all basically the same research being done by two companies, with them working together those costs are cut. intel do the same research on their own, as do ibm, and tsmc and all the other guys that make chips. they can also help each other with little tweaks and fixes they find and share tech which will help cut research costs quite a bit.


the main problem with AMD is people not understanding the debt is largely not a problem, because of future projected earnings, banks get this. if say, ati on their own had that debt, banks would have foreclosed years ago. banks and investors keeping AMD going means they understand and fully support AMD, if they were dead they would have been out long ago.

Its just a very difficult period, with winning massive fights with Dell they did great, but its a large responsibility to keep those contracts, which will mean 2-3 VERY tough years for AMD.
 
If AMD go away there wont be any competition and Intel will be able to price their processors however they want - we do not want this, we do not want AMD to go away.

So I don't understand all this fanboism because competition is what lowers prices - I mean look at the lcd and ddr market. Look at the prices in those areas, lots of competition benifits the consumer.
 
I am unsure as to who needs quad core (native or not) at the moment except for bragging rights and major expense in the high end seeing as Intels high end quad cores cost £600+ which is unrealistic. However cost effective quad cores such as the Q6700 is still over £300 pounds so the quad cores from AMD may seem like value for money but the reviews did not male it look that way.

The new 970 chipsets with single, dual and quad crossfire options and HT 3 capability may turn out to be a real boom for the Phenom but this is not how the reviews have told the story.

** ***** and other PC vendors may be able to offer SPIDER solutions based around this AMD/ATi solution but the options from Intel/Nvidia are equally compelling apart from SLI only going two way and not being officially supported in drivers as yet.


**edit** No competitors, read the FAQ - Jedifragger
 
can anyone tell me why IBM dont go into the consumer market? they seem to make cracking chips and have a huge number of FAB's and money and practically everything already
 
AMD's biggest two mistakes were,

1. Buying ATI.
2. Getting rid of 939 and alienating a massive chunk of their users.

They need to sell off ATI, (not to Nvidia or Intel) so that they can concentrate on their CPU side. That way they would have more money for R&D instead of running both companies into the ground. At the moment things are looking bad for them and i can't see it getting better any time soon.
 
AMD's biggest two mistakes were,

1. Buying ATI.
2. Getting rid of 939 and alienating a massive chunk of their users.

They need to sell off ATI, (not to Nvidia or Intel) so that they can concentrate on their CPU side. That way they would have more money for R&D instead of running both companies into the ground. At the moment things are looking bad for them and i can't see it getting better any time soon.

Add not making an MCM quad too. They could have slapped two dual core opterons together ages ago.
 
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