Newbie Web Designer - 33 & starting from scratch - Need Advice

mug2k · 31 Jan 2014 at 15:19

Newbie Web Developer - 33 & starting from scratch - Need Advice

Hi

I thought I'd try my hand at learning web design and picked up a few cheap courses at Udemy (I didn't pay full price) :-

HTML & CSS - https://www.udemy.com/build-website-scratch/
PSD to HTML/CSS - https://www.udemy.com/build-beautiful-html5-website/
Bootstrap course - https://www.udemy.com/code-responsive-website-twitter-bootstrap/

I'm at the very beginning and learning the basics of HTML and CSS and am very much enjoying what I'm learning so far, the courses above are only just starting points and I'll of course be looking to learn much more. I do worry about the creative aspect because I'm not artistic in the slightest.

I've been selling on eBay for the last 10 years and importing things from China but have only ever earned enough to just get by. Now it's harder than ever to make a living selling there because the competition is vast and diverse (sellers from China making pennies profit). I haven't really got any decent job skills to speak of because I spent so long doing the eBay thing. I'm hoping once I've learnt a fair amount I might be able to get a job somewhere and start at the bottom or maybe some basic freelance work. Being 33 I need to get out of my parents house at some point.

Based on all I've said above I have a few questions :-

1. What would you recommend me to start learning after I've finished the Udemy courses above ?

2. As I alluded to above I'm not very artsy, do you think good design and principles are something that can be learnt if you are artistically challenged ?

3. Have any of you guys started this fairly late in life like me and managed to get a career out of it ?

I'll take any advice I can get my hands on at this point, so please add anything that might be useful or be as harsh as you want.

Thanks for reading,
Marcus

GravyMonster · 31 Jan 2014 at 16:43

If you're not great at the creative side then it sounds like you should be looking at web developing, instead of designing. This isn't the end of the world as the courses you've linked to are all about development anyway.

To answer your questions:

1. If you want to earn a living in Web dev you NEED to know a server-side language. PHP or C# being the most popular by far. You'll need to have a good understanding of their core principles and also database design and maintenance. MySQL or MSSQL for those language respectively.

2. If you're not really a natural designer, don't even bother. Just make sure you know how to use photoshop to slice a design into HTML/CSS/JS and then turn that template into a functioning site with PHP/ASP.Net/Whatever else

I can't really help with 3. as I started at 15

Th3M8dH8tt3r · 1 Feb 2014 at 09:09

Echo the above. If you don't have design flair, don't bother trying. Stick to development. Find a good designer and team up, when you get to the point where you need one.

Don't worry about starting late, you'll be able to get a grip on basic code in 6 months. This will get you to a point where you'll be able to work out how to do most things.

I didn't know a jot of HTML last March, started learning April and now 10 months later, I have a healthy client list, a number of websites and am very very happy with life.

If you've got the talent to develop, then you'll be fine.

Tripnologist · 1 Feb 2014 at 11:41

Spunkey said:
1. If you want to earn a living in Web dev you NEED to know a server-side language.

While this is generally true, it's definitely not something set in stone.
Good front end developers are in high demand these days and can be paid quite well. (I know for a fact that I'm paid more than most of the back end devs at my 50+ employee agency)

mug2k · 1 Feb 2014 at 17:31

Spunkey said:
If you're not great at the creative side then it sounds like you should be looking at web developing, instead of designing. This isn't the end of the world as the courses you've linked to are all about development anyway.

To answer your questions:

1. If you want to earn a living in Web dev you NEED to know a server-side language. PHP or C# being the most popular by far. You'll need to have a good understanding of their core principles and also database design and maintenance. MySQL or MSSQL for those language respectively.

2. If you're not really a natural designer, don't even bother. Just make sure you know how to use photoshop to slice a design into HTML/CSS/JS and then turn that template into a functioning site with PHP/ASP.Net/Whatever else

I can't really help with 3. as I started at 15

I'm planning to try and learn a server-side language after I've learnt a decent amount of HTML/CSS/JS. I've seen quite a few courses and books that teach MySQL and PHP together so that'll probably be my best bet.

The 2nd course I linked is a PSD to HTML so it seems I purchased the right course

Th3M8dH8tt3r said:
Echo the above. If you don't have design flair, don't bother trying. Stick to development. Find a good designer and team up, when you get to the point where you need one.

Don't worry about starting late, you'll be able to get a grip on basic code in 6 months. This will get you to a point where you'll be able to work out how to do most things.

I didn't know a jot of HTML last March, started learning April and now 10 months later, I have a healthy client list, a number of websites and am very very happy with life.

If you've got the talent to develop, then you'll be fine.

That's great to hear your doing so well after just 10 months, what did you use to learn so quickly ?. Also are you freelance or working for a company ?

Tripnologist said:
While this is generally true, it's definitely not something set in stone.
Good front end developers are in high demand these days and can be paid quite well. (I know for a fact that I'm paid more than most of the back end devs at my 50+ employee agency)

Just out of interest how much do you get paid and how much experience do you have ?

AJK · 1 Feb 2014 at 22:11

Completely agree that you need to be clear on the difference between web designer and developer (and the subdivisions thereof) before you go any further - this is really important for you to understand what you're getting into, and what you want to do with your new skills!

A web designer will be skilled in graphical and/or functional design (ideally both), and will likely have knowledge, experience and/or training with buzzwords including accessibility, usability and user experience. (All meaning roughly the same thing - that you know how to design a site that's functional as well as shiny.) A web designer needs to know enough about how web technology works that they can design a good site, but doesn't technically need to be able to write a single line of HTML, CSS, Javascript, or anything else.

A web developer, on the other hand, will generally be front-end (referring to code affecting the layout and operation of the page from a user's perspective) or back-end (referring to server-side code, possibly databases, the stuff the user never sees). Front-end focus is HTML, CSS, Javascript, and libraries thereof. Back-end focus is server-side languages; Java, PHP, ASP.NET, etc. A good all-round developer will be able to work both front- and back-end, but as others have commented, it's quite possible to specialise in either. A developer doesn't need to have a lick of graphical design talent, though like the designer it's extremely useful that they have at least some understanding of the principles.

Now, of course, there's no technical reason why you can't be all of the above, assuming you have the aptitude. It's not particularly common for one person to act as a one-stop shop from graphical design all the way to back-end including database development, but it's certainly common enough for designers to do some front-end coding, or generalist developers to cover front-end and back-end with a bit of basic design thrown in (such as creating basic layouts with a framework such as Bootstrap, for example...)

I agree with the others that if you're "not artistic in the slightest" then jumping straight into web design probably isn't going to work, and the courses you've identified put you squarely in the front-end developer camp anyway. BUT, it's important to think about what you actually want to do for work. Are you looking for permanent work, for example starting off as a junior developer somewhere? Or are you hoping to pick up some freelance contracts? Do you know what the job market for web professionals (whatever discipline) is like in your area, permanent, contract and/or freelance?

Regarding learning server side languages... this really depends on what you want to do! It would certainly be useful for you to understand the basics (as with design and development above, knowing a little about everything will enable you to produce a better, more rounded product no matter where you specialise), but - and I really don't know how to put this differently - there are a lot of people out there who know enough to think they can develop, but not enough to actually do it properly. Don't be one of them! If you start looking into server-side and database development and you like it, that's great - get stuck in, get good and enjoy it - but if you'd prefer to stick to front-end, that's fine. In that case you'll have more time to spend improving your front-end skills and will become all the more employable for it!

I'm going forum-blind staring at this reply window now so that'll do. Hope it helped. If not, just ignore me!

And good luck

Fallen god · 1 Feb 2014 at 23:47

Best way to learn after those courses is to build something, anything you like. Just the thought of making something, facing a brick wall, figuring it out and fixing it. Its an amazing rush and well keep you going. Compared to following some guide online.

After you make your first site, go back and improve it, maybe make your code more modular and reusable, improve on the MVC aspect. Make your code neater, pick up some testing experience while your in there.

If you want to focus more on the frontend I would still recommend you have a good understand of the database and server side language e.g. php. This puts you at a great advantage. Frontend development is also exploding, everyone wants a beautiful responsive site these days. Javascript is going crazy, frameworks like AngularJS and backbone JS are really pushing it forward, CSS is becoming a much better langauge with SASS and Less and HTML5 is getting pretty good now and you can do quiet a lot with simple mark up.

Picking up something like bootstrap is really wise, but I doubt you would need a course for that, the documentation covers everything and the internet has so much info on bootstrap today. There are also some other decent CSS frameworks that you should take a look at, such as foundation.

This not only teaches you everything (Full stack is a big deal these days) you have a awesome project to show off.

For getting jobs, I have a lot of friends that started web developing in their Mid 20s - 30s, all they really did was learn. One great example was a friend of mine, he worked at a radio station and did almost nothing all day. So he decided to read a book on html, then he read some more books. He did a bit of freelance work and some side projects and after that landed a job. Today which is 6 years on he is heading up a team and is one of the best developers I know.

Your still relatively young career wise, and although I don't have masses of experience being 23 I think if your passionate about it finding a job and building a career will be the easiest part.

Just to make things easier on your self when you do decide to find a job have a nice site to show off as an example, be up front and tell them that you might not have excellent experience and so on but your passionate and you have put in the work. I'm 100% sure a lot of amazing companies well response well.

mug2k · 2 Feb 2014 at 01:02

AJK said:
Completely agree that you need to be clear on the difference between web designer and developer (and the subdivisions thereof) before you go any further - this is really important for you to understand what you're getting into, and what you want to do with your new skills!

A web designer will be skilled in graphical and/or functional design (ideally both), and will likely have knowledge, experience and/or training with buzzwords including accessibility, usability and user experience. (All meaning roughly the same thing - that you know how to design a site that's functional as well as shiny.) A web designer needs to know enough about how web technology works that they can design a good site, but doesn't technically need to be able to write a single line of HTML, CSS, Javascript, or anything else.

A web developer, on the other hand, will generally be front-end (referring to code affecting the layout and operation of the page from a user's perspective) or back-end (referring to server-side code, possibly databases, the stuff the user never sees). Front-end focus is HTML, CSS, Javascript, and libraries thereof. Back-end focus is server-side languages; Java, PHP, ASP.NET, etc. A good all-round developer will be able to work both front- and back-end, but as others have commented, it's quite possible to specialise in either. A developer doesn't need to have a lick of graphical design talent, though like the designer it's extremely useful that they have at least some understanding of the principles.

Now, of course, there's no technical reason why you can't be all of the above, assuming you have the aptitude. It's not particularly common for one person to act as a one-stop shop from graphical design all the way to back-end including database development, but it's certainly common enough for designers to do some front-end coding, or generalist developers to cover front-end and back-end with a bit of basic design thrown in (such as creating basic layouts with a framework such as Bootstrap, for example...)

I agree with the others that if you're "not artistic in the slightest" then jumping straight into web design probably isn't going to work, and the courses you've identified put you squarely in the front-end developer camp anyway. BUT, it's important to think about what you actually want to do for work. Are you looking for permanent work, for example starting off as a junior developer somewhere? Or are you hoping to pick up some freelance contracts? Do you know what the job market for web professionals (whatever discipline) is like in your area, permanent, contract and/or freelance?

Regarding learning server side languages... this really depends on what you want to do! It would certainly be useful for you to understand the basics (as with design and development above, knowing a little about everything will enable you to produce a better, more rounded product no matter where you specialise), but - and I really don't know how to put this differently - there are a lot of people out there who know enough to think they can develop, but not enough to actually do it properly. Don't be one of them! If you start looking into server-side and database development and you like it, that's great - get stuck in, get good and enjoy it - but if you'd prefer to stick to front-end, that's fine. In that case you'll have more time to spend improving your front-end skills and will become all the more employable for it!

I'm going forum-blind staring at this reply window now so that'll do. Hope it helped. If not, just ignore me!

And good luck

My title shows much little I know about the subjects lol, since making the thread I've been reading some stuff here and there and realised the difference between designer and developer. I think the developer route is definitely the way to go for me and see how I go artistically when I make a few sites. I think I have an eye for what looks nice and there is plenty of inspiration to take from the millions of sites that exist.

I guess that will be a work in progress if I ever learn the aptitude to make nice sites but I'll concentrate on the front-end languages/markups to begin with and if that goes well I'll have a go at the server side stuff.

I'll try and gain a good grounding in HTML & CSS before jumping to the next thing. Too much too soon would probably burn me out and demotivate me in the process.

Thanks for the reply and I think I better edit the title now

Fallen god said:
Best way to learn after those courses is to build something, anything you like. Just the thought of making something, facing a brick wall, figuring it out and fixing it. Its an amazing rush and well keep you going. Compared to following some guide online.

After you make your first site, go back and improve it, maybe make your code more modular and reusable, improve on the MVC aspect. Make your code neater, pick up some testing experience while your in there.

If you want to focus more on the frontend I would still recommend you have a good understand of the database and server side language e.g. php. This puts you at a great advantage. Frontend development is also exploding, everyone wants a beautiful responsive site these days. Javascript is going crazy, frameworks like AngularJS and backbone JS are really pushing it forward, CSS is becoming a much better langauge with SASS and Less and HTML5 is getting pretty good now and you can do quiet a lot with simple mark up.

Picking up something like bootstrap is really wise, but I doubt you would need a course for that, the documentation covers everything and the internet has so much info on bootstrap today. There are also some other decent CSS frameworks that you should take a look at, such as foundation.

This not only teaches you everything (Full stack is a big deal these days) you have a awesome project to show off.

For getting jobs, I have a lot of friends that started web developing in their Mid 20s - 30s, all they really did was learn. One great example was a friend of mine, he worked at a radio station and did almost nothing all day. So he decided to read a book on html, then he read some more books. He did a bit of freelance work and some side projects and after that landed a job. Today which is 6 years on he is heading up a team and is one of the best developers I know.

Your still relatively young career wise, and although I don't have masses of experience being 23 I think if your passionate about it finding a job and building a career will be the easiest part.

Just to make things easier on your self when you do decide to find a job have a nice site to show off as an example, be up front and tell them that you might not have excellent experience and so on but your passionate and you have put in the work. I'm 100% sure a lot of amazing companies well response well.

As soon I think I have a handle on HTML & CSS I'll be diving straight in and start making a website. My plan is to buy a domain that hosts a few mini sites based things that interest me and maybe hobbies (I have plenty of time to decide what I'm going to put there). Then I hope to come back to those sites and improve as I learn more and it could act as my CV/portfolio if I go for jobs or get some freelance work.

I like the look of Foundation and developers seem to favour it over bootstrap reading (I'll still do the bootstrap course I paid for though). On a personal level I'm loving these new responsive sites that resize to be perfectly usable on mobile devices, it was genius whoever thought of that first.

From my research there are quite a few decent places free and paid (Treehouse, Codeacademy, Tutsplus, Codeschool) that I can learn from and will be looking into them more after I've completed the courses in the OP. Also there is literally thousands of tutorials on web on a multitude of subjects so the material for learning defo not in short supply.

Your friend sounds like he found his calling and has landed on his feet big time. I hope your right about finding a job being the easiest part as that's my main worry to be honest. I've only ever done the eBay thing and a few short jobs so employment is not a fruitful area for me.

Cheers for the reply.

Th3M8dH8tt3r · 3 Feb 2014 at 01:47

mug2k said:
That's great to hear your doing so well after just 10 months, what did you use to learn so quickly ?. Also are you freelance or working for a company ?

I came across Team Treehouse, fantastic learning resource. I think though, I have the sort of logical mathematical brain that suits code though, so I found it all quite easy.

Languages I know are HTML, CSS, jQuery, PHP, mySQL and I've used it all to become a WordPress front and back end developer. Can't design for squat. I tell my designers what I want a page to look like, where I want stuff, how I want it to look and they turn my vision into reality.

Which answers the other question, I work for myself. I have a few people working for me but we're all technically, freelancers.

To expand on the point about either design or dev, you need to look at the left and right side of the brain. One is stronger than the other typically. Left side is creative, right side is cognitive(I think). Either way, design suits one side better and dev the other so been good at both is rare.

mug2k · 5 Feb 2014 at 15:05

Th3M8dH8tt3r said:
I came across Team Treehouse, fantastic learning resource. I think though, I have the sort of logical mathematical brain that suits code though, so I found it all quite easy.

Languages I know are HTML, CSS, jQuery, PHP, mySQL and I've used it all to become a WordPress front and back end developer. Can't design for squat. I tell my designers what I want a page to look like, where I want stuff, how I want it to look and they turn my vision into reality.

Which answers the other question, I work for myself. I have a few people working for me but we're all technically, freelancers.

To expand on the point about either design or dev, you need to look at the left and right side of the brain. One is stronger than the other typically. Left side is creative, right side is cognitive(I think). Either way, design suits one side better and dev the other so been good at both is rare.

I've signed up at Treehouse and have a whopping 250 points so far. From the little I've done I like it, the quizzes and coding tests are a nice touch. I've chose the web design track to start with so I can learn the utter basics and maybe some design principles along the way.

I guess through the learning process and making a few mini-sites along the way I'll find which part of my brain is stronger, I think it will be the right side but we'll see.

Do you have any examples of your work?

macmodder · 5 Feb 2014 at 16:35

I'm a web designer and developer and I think I'd have a disagree with some of the sentiment here. Design can be learnt – at least there are a lot of design principles which can be learnt, and if you stick to them you will produce *solid* work. We're not talking No swearing - Davey-hot design here, but solid reliable design which IRL accounts for 90–95% of paid design work.

Looking at it from the other end visual talent isn't enough by itself to be a good designer – I've seen plenty of gifted designer produce rubbish because they didn't know better.

However I would still suggest what you want to be is a front end developer rather than a designer (based on what you've said you're doing courses about).

mug2k · 6 Feb 2014 at 17:43

Thanks for the insight macmodder, hopefully I'll learn some basic design skills along the way.

I have one more question, I'm looking to buy a domain that'll act as a portfolio. Is it a good idea for the domain name to be my full name or maybe just initials and surname ? Also is there any advantage in going for a .com over a co.uk?

jsmoke · 6 Feb 2014 at 17:58

Be caution about taking advice. People that work in this tech industry can be quite obnoxious about telling you what you can and can't do.

AJK · 6 Feb 2014 at 19:52

mug2k said:
I have one more question, I'm looking to buy a domain that'll act as a portfolio. Is it a good idea for the domain name to be my full name or maybe just initials and surname ? Also is there any advantage in going for a .com over a co.uk?

Up to you really! If you're happy being known professionally as your full name, go with that. If you'd prefer initials, that's fine too (unless your initials and surname spell out something dodgy of course!). If your name is particularly long, go for the initials - 12 characters is about long enough for a domain IMO, though others may disagree.

As for .com/.co.uk - register both if available, otherwise get whichever is! I prefer .com as the "traditional" and still best recognised domain but again, it doesn't make a great deal of difference. .net is another option if neither of the others are free?

AJK · 6 Feb 2014 at 19:52

jsmoke said:
Be caution about taking advice. People that work in this tech industry can be quite obnoxious about telling you what you can and can't do.

Is that related to advice in general, or do you believe some of the advice here is particularly obnoxious?

mug2k · 23 Jan 2015 at 15:29

Just thought I'd pop back in here and let you know what I've been up to. After creating this thread I got some work unrelated to dev and design and finished the contract in July and done nothing of merit in terms of learning in that whole period.

I started up again learning some HTML/CSS and began to build the odd site (http://i.imgur.com/IbAs3YW.jpg) and realised my design skills were horrible and thought I better try and learn a bit about design before I get back to the coding side. So I've spent the last 6 months learning about design and have really enjoyed it but realise it is a huge topic and I still have so much to learn. I have a profile on Dribbble (https://dribbble.com/mshanda) and have been contacted by a startup in Madrid for a design job but they thought it was a bit early for me and I'm a little too inexperienced and I tend to agree. Also just last week a sports media company (http://factorymedia.com) sent me an email about front-end developer job for £25K-30K, they liked my designs but I don't have the development skills so that was a non starter too.

For 6 months ish of learning I'm pretty happy with my progress and seem to be at least half decent because 2 companies have contacted me. Now it's time to learn some of the front-end skills so I can become more employable and also be able to build the designs I create. I'll still keep learning the design side of things as I'm far from a pro and it's something I really enjoy doing and learning about. I've had the odd design job here and there but not as much as I'd like so I'm hoping the year ahead will be better in terms of earning and being able to build and design could only improve my chances going forward.

Thanks for reading,
Marcus

Ransom · 26 Jan 2015 at 13:11

Thanks for the update an good luck getting your dream job

webhound · 26 Jan 2015 at 13:42

Could you send me a Dribble invite please!

mug2k · 26 Jan 2015 at 13:55

Ransom said:
Thanks for the update an good luck getting your dream job

I got some freelance work for this week, so that's a start

webhound said:
Could you send me a Dribble invite please!

I haven't been given any yet, sorry.

webhound · 26 Jan 2015 at 14:24

Ah ok, well maybe when they do give you some

In the meantime all the best with your freelancing ventures and you never stop learning even if you've been in the industry for years!
P.S I think Foundation isn't supported below IE9.. something to consider between that and Bootstrap