1.2 Puretech Turbo - Oil issues

[Gammawolf]

Back again after that earlier infamous wet belt issue (which has been running fine since replacement/clean out). The car has never been great for oil. Maybe 0.5L every 1-2k miles. Recently though i drove around 100 miles worth very hard at about 5k RPM and noticed it ate probably around 0.8L in less than 200 miles. No oil anywhere in the engine bay so it must be burning it. I had initially thought maybe the oil rings (hence running it hard to get it hot) but then started looking at the PCV system after seeing more oil that i'd like in the hoses to the intercooler. Checked the "PCV valve" but all seem relatively ok there although it seemed a little nasty with what looked like homogenized water and oil (aka mayo) in the general area next to what seemed like an emergency pressure relief valve.

Took the valve rocker cover/oil separator/oil vapor system off hoping to just clean it out and found what is likely the culprit, this small valve is ripped and seems to be letting by. After a bit of sucking and blowing its function seems to be that it should be closed under normal operation, which then allows the only air path to go through the "PCV valve". The negative pressure here should then close the valve under normal operations. With this smaller valve broken, its bypassing the PCV valve and also not allowing enough negative pressure to keep that closed.

I've got a new one on order so will be replacing the entire assembly (Part: 9849189680), but it seems a bit mad for the sake of a 2pence size bit of silicone/rubber to need to do that. Also i don't understand the function of this small valve and why it exists. The only thing i can think of is there's a multi stage condenser to return oil. Otherwise if i blocked that whole thing up the evap system would function normally and i'd not need that part replacing. Below is a diagram of how it functions with the added broken valve near the number 6.

Will update the thread when the part arrives and i can run it through some tests but just annoying you have to spend £120 on a part for the sake of a 20p valve..

 

[jpaul]

so did you open and inspect the pcv valve itself ? on the bmw3er this was a 3-4" dia capsule, with inlet from crank case at centre, where the gunk/mayo build up is;
mot emissions were showing a lot of oil/hydrocarbons in the exhaust which wasn't doing the catalyst any good, failure of valve was one of culprits & worn engine/rings.

 

[DeadArt]

Hello. Did you initially have a cover with article number 9849189680 installed? My eb2adts has a cover with article number 9811687980, the documentation says that you need to install cover 9849189680. I came across the following information on a French forum:

 

[jpaul]

[ interesting one - a wet belt -> chain conversion kit £500

]

 

[blueacid]

[ interesting one - a wet belt -> chain conversion kit £500

]

That seems such a better idea. Wet belts were always a terrible idea!

 

[Gammawolf]

so did you open and inspect the pcv valve itself ? on the bmw3er this was a 3-4" dia capsule, with inlet from crank case at centre, where the gunk/mayo build up is;
mot emissions were showing a lot of oil/hydrocarbons in the exhaust which wasn't doing the catalyst any good, failure of valve was one of culprits & worn engine/rings.

Yep, I had a look at the PCV valve itself first, thats where all the mayo like stuff was in. I originally ordered a mini R56 one to replace it with just in case as it takes the same one but that was before I realised there were other valves in the assembly that were actually broken and would cause this one to remain open all the time.

Hello. Did you initially have a cover with article number 9849189680 installed? My eb2adts has a cover with article number 9811687980, the documentation says that you need to install cover 9849189680. I came across the following information on a French forum:

Mine originally was installed with 9821496780, I bought and fitted 9849189680 to replace it with. There were some differences, for instance there was a over pressure valve around the PCV area that was sealed off now in the plastic moulding and removed. But otherwise a perfect fit for my engine (EB2ADT in a 2019 Vauxhall Combo Life). So far i've yet to do a long hard run but i can now see the PCV valve functioning as normal. When i took the oil cap off previously and covered/uncovered the hole i couldn't see any movement on the PCV valve through the little holes on the top. Now with it replaced and doing the same I can clearly see the PCV valve moving up and down and sealing since there's no more bypass. I'm fairly confident this is going to fix the medium/high oil consumption as we were in the middle range consumption under normal driving in that table you posted! The engine seems to be a bit more responsive now and I feel like there's a sharper turbo surge around 1.8k RPM (could be placebo though as nothing measured yet for oil consumption)

[ interesting one - a wet belt -> chain conversion kit £500

]

Saw this one too around the same time! Given i've already done a belt replacement and have all the stuff I'll just continue to do it as it'll be cheaper because i'm "free labour" . Would be nice if they just fitted these from the get go. I do wonder however how much of the belt damage is also caused by this oil separator issue (I had belt failure/bits blocking the oil pickup at 4 years/50k miles, so before their replacement interval as described in this previous thread https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/1-2l-puretech-wet-belt-issues.18985798/ ). The PCV system failing in the way mine did puts the crankcase under a lot of negative pressure as the turbo constantly wants to take air out of the crankcase from none sealing valves. I'm sure it then pulls more than normal combustion/blow by gases into the crank case and that mixing with the oil and belt surely can't be good for it. Just arm chair thinking, not based on anything measured or the like..

 

[DeadArt]

Also i don't understand the function of this small valve and why it exists.

Do you understand what this valve (6) is for? How does it work? Is it installed parallel to the PCV valve? Does the PCV valve close when there is excess vacuum and does this small valve close too? Or is it installed in the opposite direction?

 

[Gammawolf]

Do you understand what this valve (6) is for? How does it work? Is it installed parallel to the PCV valve? Does the PCV valve close when there is excess vacuum and does this small valve close too? Or is it installed in the opposite direction?

I can explain how it flows relative to the other parts but i don't know why its designed into the system - my one and only guess for its functioning is to return oil which condense that part of the PCV system back to the engine This would be separate to the main separate/cyclone. (not saying you should but you could just block up small port/valve and it would fix the oil consumption issue, what other effects this would have i don't know)

It is installed in parallel to the PCV valve in the same direction, so if it is broken or not sealing correctly the negative pressure from the turbo/air intake has trouble/cannot close the main PCV valve against the spring. Under normal operations when both valves are working this small one closes first as it's just gravity that holds it open which then allows the PCV valve to close against the pressure of the spring that holds it open. With both of these now closed theres no path for the air intake to pull out from the crankcase and they will remain closed until blowby gases/higher engine load start creating enough positive pressure in the crankcase to open the PCV system and let it flow into the engine to be re-combusted. As far as I can see the air that gets bypassed if that smaller valve is broken also bypasses the oil separation cyclone (the large tube sticking down, which is supposed to condense oil vapors and the let it drip/return to the engine).

 

[DeadArt]

Where does the square channel (window) where the membrane is installed lead? To the crankcase? Is this the inlet for crankcase gases into the valve cover?

 

[Gammawolf]

Yep it goes over that, i had a look down at the time however i couldn't see anything, should have push my endoscope down to have a look but at the time had no reason to.

Above tear down seems to show that port narrowing down when you take the cam covers off, but i can't find anything corresponding for when the head comes off - my guess would be oil return to somewhere around the camshafts?

There are two inlet paths so to speak for the crank case gases, that square one which i don't think should be used in normal operation and the main one which looks designed for the majority of the flow.
It has what seems to be a device that drips oil out just to the right, before i think going into the main cyclone

 

[DeadArt]

Readme
Section 2.3. This is a little about an earlier version of the engine, but I think the principle of operation is the same

 

[DeadArt]

The previous link to the article is dead.
New link

 

[Burgercheese]

Yep it goes over that, i had a look down at the time however i couldn't see anything, should have push my endoscope down to have a look but at the time had no reason to.

Above tear down seems to show that port narrowing down when you take the cam covers off, but i can't find anything corresponding for when the head comes off - my guess would be oil return to somewhere around the camshafts?

There are two inlet paths so to speak for the crank case gases, that square one which i don't think should be used in normal operation and the main one which looks designed for the majority of the flow.
It has what seems to be a device that drips oil out just to the right, before i think going into the main cyclone

Back again after that earlier infamous wet belt issue (which has been running fine since replacement/clean out). The car has never been great for oil. Maybe 0.5L every 1-2k miles. Recently though i drove around 100 miles worth very hard at about 5k RPM and noticed it ate probably around 0.8L in less than 200 miles. No oil anywhere in the engine bay so it must be burning it. I had initially thought maybe the oil rings (hence running it hard to get it hot) but then started looking at the PCV system after seeing more oil that i'd like in the hoses to the intercooler. Checked the "PCV valve" but all seem relatively ok there although it seemed a little nasty with what looked like homogenized water and oil (aka mayo) in the general area next to what seemed like an emergency pressure relief valve.

Took the valve rocker cover/oil separator/oil vapor system off hoping to just clean it out and found what is likely the culprit, this small valve is ripped and seems to be letting by. After a bit of sucking and blowing its function seems to be that it should be closed under normal operation, which then allows the only air path to go through the "PCV valve". The negative pressure here should then close the valve under normal operations. With this smaller valve broken, its bypassing the PCV valve and also not allowing enough negative pressure to keep that closed.

I've got a new one on order so will be replacing the entire assembly (Part: 9849189680), but it seems a bit mad for the sake of a 2pence size bit of silicone/rubber to need to do that. Also i don't understand the function of this small valve and why it exists. The only thing i can think of is there's a multi stage condenser to return oil. Otherwise if i blocked that whole thing up the evap system would function normally and i'd not need that part replacing. Below is a diagram of how it functions with the added broken valve near the number 6.

Will update the thread when the part arrives and i can run it through some tests but just annoying you have to spend £120 on a part for the sake of a 20p valve..

@Gammawolf did this fix your oil consumption issue? I have a 2019 C3 that's started to develop a thirst for oil and I suspect it's a similar issue.

Were you able to test if it's at fault without pulling the rocker cover off?

Thanks

 

[Gammawolf]

@Gammawolf did this fix your oil consumption issue? I have a 2019 C3 that's started to develop a thirst for oil and I suspect it's a similar issue.

Were you able to test if it's at fault without pulling the rocker cover off?

Thanks

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have made much difference, I've had about 2k miles on it since then with normal driving and some large trips to Wales etc. So far I'm still getting around 800 miles per 0.5L which is about the same it was before . Not sure if this test confirms anything but you should be able to see the PCV valve working as there are two air holes in the top. Idle the engine and when you take the oil cap off the value should pop up, and when covering the oil cap again it pulls the valve down as the seal is made. Not anything i read anywhere but thats just how mine behaves after replacement. I only noticed it after replacement as the two holes were dirty before so i couldn't see the orange PCV value opening/closing. I wanted to try every possible avenue before committing to piston ring talk, but it looks like it might be time to look at the rings Issue is I don't have a second car so its not a job i can do myself.. and neither a job i want to pay someone else 3k to do

 

[Zeljko]

Здраво. Да ли сте у почетку имали инсталиран поклопац са бројем артикла 9849189680? Мој еб2адтс има омот са бројем артикла 9811687980, документација каже да треба да инсталирате поклопац 9849189680. Наишао сам на следеће информације на једном француском форуму:

Can you describe the difference 9811687980 And 9849189680

 

[Zeljko]

Can you describe the difference between 9811687980 and 9849189680?

Здраво. Да ли сте у почетку имали инсталиран поклопац са бројем артикла 9849189680? Мој еб2адтс има омот са бројем артикла 9811687980, документација каже да треба да инсталирате поклопац 9849189680. Наишао сам на следеће информације на једном француском форуму:

I own an Opel Grandland 1.2 130 hp 2018. 6 months ago the oil separator membrane burst. The mechanic said he had to replace the entire valve cover. That's what he did. After that, the oil consumption increased dramatically. I didn't notice the number on the top of the cover, but I saw that the gasket was blue. I found on Google that the gasket code 9811687980 is blue, and the code 9849189680 is red. Should I replace the valve cover again and will that reduce oil consumption?

 

[Zeljko]

Hello. Did you initially have a cover with article number 9849189680 installed? My eb2adts has a cover with article number 9811687980, the documentation says that you need to install cover 9849189680. I came across the following information on a French forum:

I own an Opel grandland 1.2 130 hp 2018. 6 months ago, the membrane on the oil separator broke. The mechanic said he had to replace the entire valve cover. That's what he did. After that, oil consumption increased drastically. I didn't notice the number on the upper part of the cover, but I saw that the gasket was blue. I found on google that the gasket code 9811687980 is blue and code 9849189680 is red. Should I go ahead and replace the valve cover again and will it reduce the oil consumption?

 

[Gammawolf]

I own an Opel grandland 1.2 130 hp 2018. 6 months ago, the membrane on the oil separator broke. The mechanic said he had to replace the entire valve cover. That's what he did. After that, oil consumption increased drastically. I didn't notice the number on the upper part of the cover, but I saw that the gasket was blue. I found on google that the gasket code 9811687980 is blue and code 9849189680 is red. Should I go ahead and replace the valve cover again and will it reduce the oil consumption?

Sorry, i didn't see this message, you can check the part number installed - its just under this tube, if you unclip it a little to the right you can move it enough to see the number. I can't say if a different part will help with the oil issues though

Piston Soak
As an update to this I ended up trying a engine flush and piston soak this weekend - nothing blew up so time will tell if this helps the oil issues: Added the procedure and some pictures I took in case anyone is thinking of the same. Its a combination of steps from various youtube, forums and a hyundai combustion chamber cleaning bulletin.


First I used a can of "LIQUI MOLY Pro-Line Engine Flush", ran the engine to temp, poured the can into the crank case and then let idle for 15 mins. The website says "Can be safely used in vehicles with toothed belt running in oil". I will be keeping an eye on the belt however.

This seemed to be cleaning something as the oil looked a little darker on the dip, however it was fairly dirty to start with.

I then decided not to drain it. This was because I was doing the piston soak right away, so other chemicals would be in the case and I'd rather they mixed with a greater volume so i can take a higher % of the piston soak fluid out (Rather than have it sat potentially at the bottom of the pan as the nut clearance leaves a little pool)

The point of the piston soak is mainly the rings, but you can't see them so here's a few pictures of the piston before the soak.

I used Berrymans B12 for the piston soak, rough procedure I did was:
-Find cylinder 1 top, fill with B12 until it just makes its way up the spark plug threads, this was to try to get as much of the piston and the top of the chamber/valves covered. In my engine this was about 50-60ml.
-In the other 2 cylinders put in 40ml, loosely screw spark plugs back in then wait 6-8 hours.
-Interestingly as a general rule, the fluid in the cylinder that had the piston at top usually stayed for the whole 6-8 hours, it would go a little down but not much. The other two that would be near the bottom always had lost their fluid after the 8 hours.
-Rotate engine so the next cylinder is top and repeat. If the previous at top cylinder had enough fluid left i didn't add any extra to that one.
-Rotate again and repeat for final cylinder

Once all of them had a main 8 hours soak at top and 2 "sub" soaks I had a look and saw quite a lot of carbon. Some of them were quite large chunks as seen in the video here:

[VIDEO] https://imgur.com/ROalMHl

I waited for all this to dry out (B12 evaporates quite fast). Then I attached a metal straw to the end of my air compressor to get it down properly. I blew each one out when the cylinder was at top to get most of the crud out as possible. Top was chosen so the valves were closed and the only exit point was the spark plug hole. Quite a lot shot out, i could feel it peppering my face and it littered the engine bay visibly. It was not a dust, but more like a feel of sand hitting your face on a windy day at the beach. When picked up these small pieces could be crushed into a powered, similar to burn bits in your oven.

After this the pistons all looked roughly like this, much cleaner looking but really its the rings we are hoping to clean/soften

I then repeated the soak process but only focused on the top cylinder in each cycle and didn't wait 8 hours but only 2. I have a 100ml syringe so after the 2 hour soak i sucked it all up pushed it in and washed it around a couple times.

After this I again blew them out, a little came out but not significant.

During the wait periods of the process I had the oil filler cap open, as i wanted the B12 draining down to evaporate out and not stay in the crank case (because of the wet belt).
Once all of the above was done I cleaned it up and inserted the old spark plugs back in (I'll run the car on these for a small while and switch to new ones I had bought previously but never installed. Some people report they put oil into the cylinders since the B12 strips it all out, i didn't see anything indicating this in the Hyundai bulletin so i didn't.

Then just went about a normal oil and filter change, my plug is on one side so I jacked the car up on the other side to get as much out as possible.

Now butt clench moment to start the car... it started within a few seconds, at most maybe 2 or 3 seconds of crank. From other youtube videos i was expecting this to be a 20-30 second process potentially.
The car then just sat and idled for 15 minutes. For the first few minutes the exhaust was normal, but then I think as it heated up and the other loose carbon bits left the cylinders it started to burn off and produce a grey smoke. Far less than what I've seen others on youtube have but then again my engine is small. This smoke disappeared about 6 or 7 minutes.

Will report back after getting some data to say if this helped the oil issues, and i'll likely replace the belt again soonish (its just over 1 year old)