100hz lcd's in "pc mode" - when ?

bobert50 · 28 Dec 2007 at 14:56

yea the f86

Do you use the 100hz a lot then for normal viewing? and maybe could confirm whether 100hz works or not for games consoles use?

Its surely an aquired taste though, even for normal viewing the purists may hate it but some might prefer it

especially if it eliminates the dreaded ghosting.

azzerz · 28 Dec 2007 at 14:58

have it hooked up to my ps3... all games look brilliant on it

bobert50 · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:06

Yea i can imagine , but brilliant in 60hz or 100hz? do you get a choice or is it like "pc mode" where it forces you to use 60hz ?

divine` · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:12

What exactly does the 100Hz refer to? Because LCDs don't have a refresh rate in the sense a a CRT does, do they?

The only thing I was aware of on an LCD given a Hz rating, was the backlight flicker, which has been 200Hz since before LCDs became mainstream.

Fr0dders · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:15

bobert50 said:
yea it looks silly in movies etc because it somehow doesn't make the animation look real. I suspect that in games it'd look ultra smooth!

Does anyone know if 100hz on these current lcd's work with games console games?

you know you that "PC mode" is in fact just a bunch of pre-sents in the menu.

You can quite easily use a PC or games consonole connected via HDMI / VGA without using PC mode ?

100hz processing works just fine with these inputs if you dont enable PC mode. But as both a PS3 owner and a HTCP owner, i can report it looks just as silly on the PS3, as it does with TV.

Fr0dders · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:19

divine` said:
What exactly does the 100Hz refer to? Because LCDs don't have a refresh rate in the sense a a CRT does, do they?

The only thing I was aware of on an LCD given a Hz rating, was the backlight flicker, which has been 200Hz since before LCDs became mainstream.

they do have a refresh rate, the pixel has to be refreshed otherwise it would constantly display the same image

The reason that CRTs and LCDs differ so much is because LCDs refresh individual pixels, whereas CRTs have to refresh the entire screen, hence producing the lines. You dont get the lines on an LCD because each pixel refeshes individually, and if no colour change is needed, then the LCD doesnt actually change, whereas on a CRT the entire line has to redrawn regardless if change is actually needed or not.

bobert50 · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:23

ohhh i see i see!

I thought that it was just tv style images just didn't look realistic. Is there any way you can explain why it looks silly on the pc games and games console games? Does it look speeded up or something?

divine` · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:23

Which is exactly what I thought happened, so where does this 100Hz come from?

The pixels update when needed, not just for the sake of it. etc. there is no flicker, so what is this 100Hz all about?

Fr0dders · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:24

divine` said:
What exactly does the 100Hz refer to?

100hz processing (notice the processing bit) is a computerised processing technique used by the TV

it takes the frame its displaying, and the next frame its about to display, and create an extra frame with a mixture of the 2 frames. THe idea is to interpolate and create an extra image to smooth the transition between the 2 frames

eg frame 1 the ball on the football pitch is on the line, frame 2 its an inch away on the screen, so an extra image is generated with the ball 1/2 an inch acorss to smooth the ball's path out. Unfortunately this technique just doesnt work on footage with lots of things moving on screen.

Because not all things on the screen move at the same speed, it means some stuff on the screen looks sped up, and some parts look fine where the processing got it right.

this is what the produces the handycam like effect on screen the badbad refers to. The extra frame is produced with an interpolation of a movement that didnt need to be iterpolated. It looks sped up and artificial

Now with poor quality SD sources, it can improve the picture. But with quality sources that dont require interpolation like DVDs and PCs / consoles it just makes it worse and 100hz ends up being turned off.

badbob · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:28

As said 100hz for displays where the source isn't 100hz (video sources) will result in artefacts. I remember viewing a 100hz CRT TV and turning it off, pixellation all over the place. For LCD you don't need 100hz for flicker removal, so the reason to have it is frame interpolation. However it's still causes problems, and those with it usually disable it.

divine` · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:35

...so it's a largely pointless gimmick. Joy.

Fr0dders · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:40

badbob said:
As said 100hz for displays where the source isn't 100hz (video sources) will result in artefacts. I remember viewing a 100hz CRT TV and turning it off, pixellation all over the place. For LCD you don't need 100hz for flicker removal, so the reason to have it is frame interpolation. However it's still causes problems, and those with it usually disable it.

problem is though, you have to feed the TV a 60hz source, as 100hz doesnt come up in the available refresh rates.

and the reason that 100hz doesnt come up in supported resolutions is because it doesnt actually refresh the image 100times a second, Its a computer processing technique that creates an extra image where it thinks it needs to

not a hard and fast rule like exactly 100 refreshes per second.

Fr0dders · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:51

divine` said:
...so it's a largely pointless gimmick. Joy.

essentially yes

some people think the handycam like effect looks "smooth". To most people however it just looks what it is - artificial.

its not 100 refreshs per second, its an image refreshed at 60 times per second on screen, but with extra frames created at source to try and improve the motion

i know what the OP wants, a screen that refreshs 100 times a second, but one doesnt exist

even with 100hz processing, it still only refreshes 60 times a second, but with extra frames inserted into the source, that PC / console gaming etc.. just doesnt need.

bobert50 · 28 Dec 2007 at 16:13

makes the M86 look a bit of a bargain @ £700 or so then doesn't it?

Fr0dders · 28 Dec 2007 at 16:32

it does

only reason i went for the F86 was because of the USB slot on the side, and the ability to upgrade firmware from that USB slot.

that and some other minor changes such as better shielding on the power connector etc..

i leave 100hz turned off because its a bit of a gimmick

bobert50 · 29 Dec 2007 at 16:47

K I was trying to sleep last night and this came up in my head again!!

I still don't understand how smoothening out on certain games such as football games (ie pro evo / fifa) wouldn't be fantastic with the "100hz gimmick" on.

I've seen similar functions used in other games like quakeworld where the game is only capable of 72fps but they fit in inbetween frames to make it "appear" smoother, and it works fantastically well.

I think i know what you mean by the handycam appearence and personally i quite like that as it feels to me more like looking through your eyes in realtime than actually watching a tv.

I really need to check one of these out @ a local shop.

Fr0dders · 29 Dec 2007 at 19:30

bobert50 said:
I think i know what you mean by the handycam appearence and personally i quite like that as it feels to me more like looking through your eyes in realtime than actually watching a tv.

well there we go

the effect that everybody criticises, you happen to like. Well the solution to your problem is simple, dont turn on PC mode (you dont have to) and you can enjoy 100hz processing with your PC gaming or console gaming

badbob · 29 Dec 2007 at 19:36

I think i know what you mean by the handycam appearence and personally i quite like that as it feels to me more like looking through your eyes in realtime than actually watching a tv.

I hate the effect, my Samsung has Movie Plus- it's smooth however it's like watching a Charlie Chaplin film. It's not like videotape, where it's smooth and right speed.

Decent 3:2 pulldown/progressive shouldn't be juddery either.

bobert50 · 29 Dec 2007 at 20:54

MrLOL said:
well there we go

the effect that everybody criticises, you happen to like. Well the solution to your problem is simple, dont turn on PC mode (you dont have to) and you can enjoy 100hz processing with your PC gaming or console gaming

as said i'll have to check one out shortly myself. I'd have prolly bought one when they first appeared if i'd realised they can do 100hz on the pc but i was under the impression you were forced to use "pc mode" for pc usage, glad thats not the case.

Fr0dders · 29 Dec 2007 at 21:04

on Samsungs, PC mode is only available via the VGA input

if you use a DVI >> HDMI adaptor you dont even get the option of PC mode at all

as for exactly what PC mode is, i believe it turns off most the processing (noise reduction, DniE etc..) which most people leave turned off all the time anyway ..

and i think apart from that, all it does is enable some extra size controls to help cope with overscan etc..

but this is completely pointless if you just send the PC a 1920 x 1080 image.

so PC mode doesnt actually do anything you cant do yourself, so a bit pointless