2.0 system for TV

[fobose]

Hi,

I am after some advice! I have an Onkyo a-9010b and some Dali Spektor 2 speakers for my PC setup which I have been really happy with. I've finally finished running network cables and laying wood flooring in my living room (+ general decorating in the room) and am now looking at buying some decent speakers. Perhaps some floor standers for the TV.

Richer sounds have a network stereo receiver (Pioneer SXN30AE) for £329 which is about what I want to spend. It's got ethernet, bluetooth (will connect with phone from time to time) and also has an optical input which I plan to connect to my TV with.

What I am wondering is could I spend my money more wisely and what speakers does anyone recommend? I quite like the look of the monitor audio bronze 5's and will obviously go to richer sounds at some point to test them out along with any others that people recommend?

P.S the system will be used for watching TV, movies, listening to music via ethernet (when I sort out a NAS) but spotify for now.

Many thanks,
fobose

 

[Marsman]

The Pioneer does look like a good bit of kit. I'll admit that I don't really know to enough to say whether you could spend that money more wisely. You may find members who might be able to answer that if you post in the home cinema section. Quite of the lot of regular hifi posters don't post in the sound city section.

The Bronze 5's are a good choice of speaker, but it's certainly best to go have a listen to them and others as well.

You've got the right idea looking at floor standing speakers around the £500 mark. Some people like the idea of having floor standing speakers, but want to spend around £150. Unless the speakers are heavily discounted from around the £400+ mark, £150 floor standing speakers wouldn't be anywhere near as good as bookshelf speakers costing the same. They need a more solidly made cabinet, more so than bookshelf speakers and that costs money.

One thing that needs to considered before deciding on getting floor standing speakers, is space and placement. In general they need to be given more space than bookshelf speakers. Some need to be given more distance from the wall, otherwise the sound can be boomy. I've seen some people cram them in tight up against a TV cabinet right up against the wall. Such placement is less than ideal.

You'd be surprised how much difference the right placement can make to the sound.

 

[fobose]

Thanks for the reply Marsman! After contacting Richer sounds it looks like I might be hard pressed to find one in stock. They don't have one in the Cambs store which is a shame. I am currently looking at all other options for a stereo network receiver.

Thanks for pointing out the placement. Here is a picture of where my TV is, I was planning to put the floor standers either side of the TV cabinet but perhaps I should look at bookshelf speakers for my setup too?



P.S The system on top of my cabinet is my parents, it was delivered yesterday and I am trying it out for them.

P.P.S I have not sorted out the cables for my TV and appreciate they look awful, I need to make up some new cables and put a cable tidy on the wall..

 

[Marsman]

It's going to be rather cramped for the right speaker in the corner. I think possibly the only thing worse than putting a speaker in the corner of a room, would be to place it behind something else.

Not much you can do about it though, except go for bookshelf speakers, which will give more distance from the corner, and having less bottom end than a floor standing speaker likely will help. Floor standing speakers generally have more bass impact, which can sound boomy when placed too near walls, because hard surfaces too close to the speakers reinforce the bass. Some will likely fare better than others though.

It's not an easy situation, because if you go to demo some floor standing speakers, the store will likely have a good set up to show them off as best they can. You decide what speakers to get based on how they sound when they are set up in a environment that does them some justice. Getting them home and setting them up so you have one tight in the corner of a room, you may find that the sound is boomy. Unless it's something that can be replicated in the store where you demo them, you won't know how they will do until getting them home.

It's a pity it isn't easier to try speakers at home before buying. I know there are some audio stores that offer such a service, but I'm not sure that is something Richer Sounds do.

It would be a shame to spend near £500 on speakers, only find that setting them up at home, they don't sound like what you thought you were buying.

 

[JasonM]

It's as Marsman has said, you won't fit any floor-standing speakers into that space correctly.

Speakers need to breath and for this they need space around them. Also if you have hard-reflective services near the speaker they will effect the sound waves. Putting a speaker in the corner right of picture, it's going to degrade any speaker quality. Frequencies waves below 100Hz can actually travel up-to 30 feet! You need to get at least a few feet space around any speakers.

The hard wooden floor will also not help, you will have reflection from it, also the lower frequencies will transmit sound, and the actual floor becomes part of the speaker.

I'm a Yamaha speaker fan, (I actually run 4 Yamaha NS-f160 + 2 surrounds in front room) however I can't really recommend anything as simply not listened to enough variety, Yamaha do tend to make accurate and clean sounding speakers however.

Some tips that might help.

1) You want to look for front ported speakers, as the back can be placed closer to a wall.

2) You should be investing 60-70% of your overall budget into the actual speakers, as it's speakers that put the sound in the room. You can justify going a bit lower you have a network streamer with additional features costing extra.

3) It might be worth considering a smaller speaker.

Finally your current speakers are not positioned / setup correctly. It may be if you resolve your existing issues you don't need any new speakers. These are the issues you have from that picture.

1) Your existing speakers are on the TV stand unit. That TV stand is receiving vibrations and it's muddying the lower frequencies.

2) You need to run your speakers with the cover off them. The dust cover will restrict and muddy the higher frequencies.

3) I expect your existing speakers are positioned to low. The tweeters should be around ear level, if a speaker is to bright you can always move it away from ear level a little.

What I recommend is getting some good stands that isolate and lift your existing speakers, however your massively compromised by the TV in the corner as it is.

Again I can't stress how important speaker position is and considering the environment the speaker is it. People say get X speaker, get Y speaker, often there is only minor differences between different speakers, yet massive differences can be made by paying attention to how the speaker is placed in a room.

 

[fobose]

Hi JasonM, Thanks for the very informative post! I have now decided against floor standing speakers from the comments so far. Maybe in my next house! The speakers and mini system on top of my cabinet is only temporary, I don't have any speakers stands so I placed them there just to test the system. It is actually for my parents, I will be delivering it to them tomorrow and setting it up, I just wanted to make sure it worked correctly before embarking on the hour drive.

I am thinking I could now look at getting some speaker similar to the ones I got my parents (Monitor audio bronze 2) they are also front ported which you suggested. I wanted to keep the price about £500 for speakers but if I now need to buy stands for them I will need to consider the cost of those, unless wall mounting them would be equally as good? I don't know much about stands, is there anything I need to look out for or take in to account?

 

[JasonM]

With speaker stands your buying a piece of furniture, so it's important they look good and fit with rest of room. If you look at the link below to give ideas. You notice everything in that link uses a solid base with speaker spikes, it idea is to decouple the speaker from the floor. I would be looking for something with a solid wooden base and uses spikes / cones to connect to the floor.

https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/accessories/best-speaker-stands

Some speaker stands allow you to pour sand inside of them, filling the stand with sand helps base response and extra weight makes the stand more stable. Far as i'm aware the general rule is to fill a stand 2/3's high with sand.

Wall mounting is not great, as it places the speaker to close to the wall, again your bass with be transmitted into wall, as the speakers will not be isolated like stands.

In regard to smaller speakers, Elac B5.2 and Elac B6.2's are apparently very good, just do a Youtube search of those for reviews. Also those Elac's are front ported.

 

[fobose]

Thanks very much again JasonM. I quite like the look of the Atacama Moseco 6 stands so will no doubt go with them. As they have spikes I will need something for the spikes to rest in rather than my flooring. What are your thoughts on a mini system? My TV cabinet is not big enough to fit a full size amp easily but I am sure I could modify the back of it if needed.

I now have my eye on something like this, and just spotted it with the monitor audio bronze 2's. I will still go to richer sounds and try quite a few speakers, including the B5.2's as they seem similar price.

Denon CEOL RCD-N10
https://www.richersounds.com/denon-ceol-rcd-n10-black.html

Denon CEOL RCD-N10 & Monitor Audio BRONZE 2
https://www.richersounds.com/hi-fi/...enon-ceol-rcd-n10-monitor-audio-bronze-2.html

 

[JasonM]

Writing the below in note form as it's late here.

In regard to the mini system. I'm not a fan of them, I use a HTPC into a separates amp, I understand why you would want it due to space. The main downside to the mini system, is if any part of it fails, then the whole unit is faulty. Separates system if you loose a unit other separates are still functioning. I would personally also like the amp a little more power than that wattage (60 @ 4ohm), a more powerful amp has more reserve, and tend to have less distortion. A bit like more powerful computer PSU's, there is more reserve in those larger capacitors, so the output should be more stable especially under load.

re speakers I listened to some videos including the ones below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwsmndYGss4&t=186s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NMqaB78aA8&t=204s

The Elac's they give a fuller (bigger) sound compared to the Bronze 2's. I'm only going from youtube videos, but expect the Elac's are better.

When you go Richer Sounds the sales person may not have your best interests, they are working on commission and they might push you to a speaker that's not best but more commission for them.

They will try and sell you speaker cable. Some really good speaker cable is 'DCSK' if you search this on Amazon. I run the 4mm, but 2.5mm will be fine and it's priced very good.

When you get new speakers you need to run them in. It normally takes 2 days of playing before they sound correct. You want to start with them low, and gradually increase the volume. Your best at first just playing them gentle, then leaving the room to do something else. What ever you do never drive new speakers hard until they have run in. As a speaker runs in you will find the bottom end becomes more fuller and rounded.

Also give you another speaker tip! All speakers sound different, I mean the same make / model speaker. So you could have 10 Monitor Bronze 2 speakers, and all 10 will not be the same! It's all due to differences in manufacture, same as Piano's, the same identical models will never sound quite the same. As mentioned I have 4 Yamaha NS-F160's. I selected the best 4 from a total of 6!

On that Demon midi system, just make sure it can support the ohm of your speakers. I notice power is rated at 60w at 4ohm. Just make sure they will work ok at 6ohm.

Another thing to consider is mains conditioning. I run a Tacima mains conditioner, how much they improve sounds depends on how bad your electrics on house are. Even with good wiring I had improved bottom end in sound. I had a friend who had really dodgy electric in house and it massively transformed his sound.

 

[fobose]

Hi Jason,

Thanks again for the detailed response. I would love to go down the separates route but for my setup I am going to have to go for the simple life of an all in one. I have been looking at other standard sized all in ones rather than the mini's to get something a bit more powerful but haven't quite made up my mind what I want to try in the store yet. I did also think about the HTPC route so this is still an option for me to build my own and just have a stereo amp under the TV cabinet along with the HTPC.

Re the speaker cable, that looks very similar to the 'KabelDirekt' cable I have been purchasing from the same place. I have been using 2.5mm but thought that was a bit OTT for short runs (2-3m) so I bought a 1.5mm 50m reel for wiring up my parents setup for them! I appreciate that most stores will try and rip you off and try to convince you to buy 'special' speaker cable and banana plugs so I always buy my own and never entertain the sales jargon.

That is interesting that all speakers sound different, I assumed all same brand/models would be identical. Good to know! My house is 6 years old so hopefully it has decent electrics. I've not had any issues with my current amp and speakers so far. I did not realise the conditions came in what basically is a surge protector so I could always replace my surge protector for a condition if needed in the future. Thanks for the heads up with that!

 

[JasonM]

My HTPC was built from re-used computer parts, the only thing I purchased was a Silverstone HTPC case in black, as it makes the HTPC appear similar to a separates unit. If going down this path purchase an amp with a built in DAC, then run SPDIF from the motherboards realtek. It's the DAC that provides the quality, so it's perfectly fine to use Realtek as digital out only.

Re 1.5mm cable, don't go that thin. On paper it may appear that 1.5mm is fine for short runs, however go 2.5mm. My Yamaha floorstanding speakers came supplied with 1.5mm cable but when I changed to the 4mm I had an improvement in sound. I actually changed one side of the room only, then I A & B'ed for a whole weekend, no doubt about it the thicker cable was providing a fuller sound, it actually made the top end a little brighter. I'm talking subtle changes but it was there. So don't spend all this money only to save under £10 on the thinner cable.

The Tacima CS947 are the power filters I run. There the cheapest way of improving the mains quality, the situation is we have noise on house electrics it could be from the grid, or could be something internal on your own house, this is why music can often sound better at 2am when there is less load on the grid. I would listen to my HiFi in early morning, switching it in and out, my case it was a subtle improvement, but again for the £30-£40 cost there worth it.

With HiFi it's lots of small improvements adding together, individually one thing you might not really notice, however if do you 3,4 or 5 tiny improvements they add together to make a large improvement. This is why less expensive components can often outperform more expensive components that are not setup correctly.

Another speaker tip.. The allen bolts that hold the speakers into the wooden MDF are often not tight from new. This means that the driver is vibrating against the wooden speaker case. You must do this really carefully, but if you gently tighten those allen bolts up, be so careful you don't strip the wood, you will get an improvement in sound quality from the speaker.

 

[fobose]

I ended up getting the Denon CEOL RCD-N10 which is a neat little unit. The only thing I did not realise was it has spring loaded terminals (I thought they were banana plug compatible from the pics) and would not fit my 2.5mm cables I had assembled. I had to make up some 1.5mm ones to fit but I kept them short (2m).

I also wanted the Dali Oberon 1 speakers as I found a deal for £600 for both online. Richer sounds price beat this for me to £590 but when I came to order they did not have the Oberon 1 in stock (in black) so I decided to go for the Oberon 3 instead which I had already been looking at and they applied the same discount. I've ordered the Dali E600 speaker stands to go with them from elsewhere as RS could not get them before xmas.

The Denon and Oberon 3 turned up today but unfortunately the speaker packaging was damaged on arrival. One of the speakers has a small dent/peel on the back from the damage but RS have been great and have already organised a replacement/collection.

So far I am really happy with the sound though! The speakers sound much nicer than my parents MA Bronze 2 that I tried for them, but they are a lot cheaper than the Oberon 3's.

 

[TALON1973]

If your tv is that close to the wall maybe a Soundbar will be a better option. A sonos Beam perhaps.

 

[JasonM]

Fobase, good you got everything setup. Post another picture in this thread once you have your stands setup.

Jason

 

[b00merang69]

If your tv is that close to the wall maybe a Soundbar will be a better option. A sonos Beam perhaps.

Well at least the overrated/priced brand finally has HDMI but it still apparently only supports DD not DD+,

 

[fobose]

Fobase, good you got everything setup. Post another picture in this thread once you have your stands setup.

Jason

Here is a pic this morning. So far I am really happy with the sound. I know its not ideal being in the corner and front ported speakers would have suited better.

I've also been playing with positioning from the wall and so far like them where they are (about 80mm from the TV wall).

I'll also be getting a rug in the new year to go in front of the TV.

Spoiler: pic

 

[JasonM]

Fobose, re position from wall. You would not believe how small changes in difference can effect the sound. In my home office I have speakers close to a wall, and was able to position so just another 1cm closer the sound quality degraded more.

If you have 2 stereo speakers (like you have), if you bring the speakers closer together it makes the bass more, make the speakers wider it promotes more treble. This is what people refer to as 'good imaging', it's the speaker positions that are changing the sound.

Re testing speaker position. A really good track is 'The Model' by Kraftwerk, the reason is the track has a repeating beat and you can listen to how the speaker position is effecting the beat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFq2pU21cNU

Re 2.5mm cable into amp, I have these and got 4mm cable into my amp with spring connectors. I think this Amazon link is ok with OCUK as it's audio stuff.

https://www.amazon.com/SilverbackSL-Gold-Connectors-Spring-Loaded-Inputs/dp/B00B1V0CRI

 

[fobose]

Hi JasonM,

I've been experimenting with the position but due to my space limitations and the general appearance of the setup I am limited! I originally had the speakers 200mm from the wall and moved them closer (finishing at 80mm) I can not tell the difference in my living room, perhaps the hard floors don't allow such subtle changes to be so easily noticed!

I have just bought a 50m roll of the 2.5mm cable so I can make some new cables up. I saw those type banana plugs before but could not find them available anywhere but now searching Amazon for 'Copper Wire Braided banana plug' there are a few available. I am just a bit concerned about the plug sleeves touching each other - did you have any problems or did you wrap them in electrical tape?

What are your thoughts about these 2mm type banana plugs?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/HKSMAN-Cop...77518563&s=electronics&search-type=ss&sr=1-11

 

[JasonM]

Fobose,

Re positioning of the speakers. When you move them back against the wall, there will be a sudden tipping point. So you want to find that tipping point where the sound changes, then bring them forward a little from that.

Over the speaker connections, I use the ones on the US Amazon link. These one don't short out as the connecting copper inserts enough not to leave enough to short. They sort of droop coming from the amplifier, but it's no issue. I would not get the ones you linked as the pin is hard, and I don't think the connection will be as good. The ones I linked the copper connection part is more similar to cable and thats what the spring clips are expecting.

Over the performance, I went from 1.5mm cable, to 4mm (DCSK) cable + those connections I linked. I had an improvement in the sound, my speakers became very subtle louder, and a more rounded bottom end. To tested this over 3 days, where I changed the wiring on one channel only, and was switching the balance is listening between the speakers. Again i'm talking subtle changes but the improvement was there.

So my advice pay a little extra money and ship those in from US

 

[aoaaron]

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