2005/2006 F1 News and Testing.

Deathwish said:
Are they still planning on shoe-horning in a Honda V8 to a 2003 Arrows Chassis?

Thats going to be a handful if nothing else.

Apparently yes...

Their own chassis isn't going to be ready until may or something like that.

It could well be a 2003 chassis with current bodywork - but it will be a mess.

Simon/~Flibster
 
I am very happy, says Suzuki

Following the FIA's confirmation that his team will become the eleventh team on the 2006 F1 grid, team owner, former F1 driver, Aguri Suzuki, said:

"I am very happy that the FIA has accepted Super Aguri team's application to race in the 2006 Formula One World Championship today. I am thankful for the support we received from all of the other F1 teams and we look forward to seeing them soon.

"Our team members are doing their best to make sure that we are on the grid in Bahrain," he added, "and I am confident that we will make it. I will be making an official team announcement soon regarding our driver line up for 2006."
 
rpstewart said:
Well who else were we going to pick on every other Sunday?

True...

But we now have Massa in a Ferrari... ;)


TomWilko said:
Does anyone have any news on Spa as of late? Nothing has been on planet F1, itv F1 or any of the other Formula 1 news sites for nearly a week. After the FIA discounted claims last week my mood was lifted (I am one of the current fools to have already booked a ticket and now orders are frozen!) but seeing as nothing has been done I presume Bernie is still dilly-dallying elsewhere.

Once again F1 shafts the fans with lack of communication, I need to know if its cancelled so I can book another one instead!

Try around a dozen posts up...

Last thing I heard was it can go on without any improvements as long as they pay for it :(


Type_R said:
A little off topic here, but wondering whether anyone here recommends either:

1. F1-live Premium access

2. Autosport subscription online

as a paid method of getting a little more info/videos/photos etc of the action? Anyone have experience of either of these?

Don't have either myself. Was interested in getting a full Autosport subscription...but at nearly £200 they can go hang...

I think that F1 Live looks the better at supplying extra material though from the last time I shopped around. Will have to have another look.

Simon/~Flibster
 
Type_R said:
Thanks for the input. I'll hold on until you have had another look. I dont think there are any other sites that offer vids/interviews etc based on F1 apart from those 2?

Off the top of my head....

Nope. Will have a look during the day sometime.
 
Another sponsor for WilliamsF1

In conjunction with the launch of the team's 2006 race car today, the WilliamsF1 Team unveiled an important new technical sponsor, the Japanese Mobilecast Corporation.

Headquartered in Tokyo, Mobilecast are pioneers in creating an array of consumer and business focused products around Bluetooth wireless connectivity. Mobilecast have ambitious plans to develop their brand beyond Japan and plan to use their association with the WilliamsF1 Team as a platform for international product and brand development.

An integral part of the sponsorship will see the Williams brand applied to a range of Mobilecast products, which will become available to consumers during the course of the 2006 season, while Mobilecast's branding will appear on the back of the FW28's rear wing, the nose cone and across the team environment, from trucks to garage wallboards.

In addition to the marketing benefits that the F1 sponsorship programme brings, it is envisaged that Williams and Mobilecast will co-operate on a number of technical projects using Mobilecast's wireless technology and sensing technology to harness improved communications for team activities.

Speaking prior to the launch of the WilliamsF1 FW28, Mobilecast President and CEO, Mr Eiji Akaike said, "We have successfully used motorsport sponsorship in Japan to create awareness in our target marketplace for our company and products. It is therefore entirely logical for us to use the same process as we expand into international markets. We have been impressed with Williams' professional approach and creative market treatments on how we can use a Formula One marketing association to benefit our company."

On the new acquisition, the WilliamsF1 Team's Team Principal, Frank Williams, commented, "In an environment like Williams, which is driven by technology, I am rarely surprised by mainstream technology presentations. However, what has been demonstrated by Mobilecast is particularly impressive and cutting-edge. The opportunity to partner such an innovative and forward-thinking organisation is an important one and I hope that we can prove to Mobilecast over the long-term that their investment in the WilliamsF1 Team will be both a sound and technically rewarding decision."
 
Red Bull gains Prodromou from McLaren

It's understood that McLaren chief aerodynamicist, Peter Prodromou, is to leave the Woking team and follow former technical director, Adrian Newey, to Red Bull.

There had been speculation about the move for some time, in addition to repeated rumours that vehicles director, Nicolas Tombazis, is returning to Ferrari, but these have been dismissed by the 8-time Constructors' Championship winners.

Earlier this week, McLaren CEO, Martin Whitmarsh, denied the rumours, however, the team has now issued a statement re Prodromou, stating that he is leaving but at the end of the 2006 season.

"It has been agreed by Red Bull Racing and Peter Prodromou that Peter would join the team as chief aerodynamicist later this year when his contract expires with McLaren-Mercedes," read the statement.

It remains to be seen whether there is any truth in the Tombazis rumour, though paddock insiders are already speculating over how the loss of such high-profile, and successful, men will impact the team. Furthermore, the moves are causing people to look at Red Bull a little more seriously.
 
Karthikeyan joins WilliamsF1

On the day of the launch of its 2006 season race car, the FW28, WilliamsF1 confirmed the appointment of Narain Karthikeyan as the team's fourth driver.

Karthikeyan, dubbed ‘The fastest Indian in the World,' first tested for WilliamsF1 on Wednesday 7 December, 2005, in Jerez and immediately impressed the team with his skill and capability in the car.

While the team took the decision to hire the experience of Alex Wurz to carry out the important Friday testing role for the 2006 season, WilliamsF1 still regarded the young Indian's abilities highly. Today's confirmation of Narain's appointment as a team test driver is validation of that confidence.

Narain has been signed by the team both to develop his own potential and to make a valuable contribution to the crucial test programme, the bedrock of Williams' 2006 championship as the company strengthens its new technical partnerships with engine suppliers, Cosworth and tyre company, Bridgestone.

Sir Frank Williams, WilliamsF1's Team Principal said, "Narain's brief period in the car in December, during which he provided valuable feedback, made a very distinct impression on our engineers. Having a year's GP racing and testing to his credit is also advantageous for us so I am pleased we can now formally confirm his appointment to the team."

For his part, Karthikeyan reflected, "It has taken some while to resolve what I would be doing for 2006, but having tested for Williams late last year, joining the team was the best option for me and I am delighted that we can finally confirm this today. I am looking forward to testing the FW28 and making a contribution to Williams' competitiveness this season."
 
More doubt about Spa

Although the 2006 Belgian GP at Spa has not been officially cancelled, new doubt has been placed on the event following an interview Bernie Ecclestone gave to Belgian journalist, Walter Wauters.

Asked if there will be a Belgian Grand Prix this year, Ecclestone admitted: "It will be difficult."

Last week, when the BBC claimed that Ecclestone had "pulled the plug" on the event, and other media outlets firmly laid the blame at the Englishman's door, the Spa saga took a new twist when it was claimed that the cancellation wasn't due to money problems, but the F1 supremo's demands for improved facilities, namely a new paddock complex.

Not so, says Bernie.

"That has nothing to do with it," he said. "They can organise the Grand Prix without the construction works.

All they have to do is comply with the contract and there will be a Grand Prix this year," he added, referring to the fee payable to FOM in order to host the event.

"The paddock isn't very good," he added. "They had promised to change it, but never on paper. A new paddock cannot be enforced, just as we cannot demand a new pitlane."

Referring to plans whereby he assumes the role of race promoter, Ecclestone said: "They want us to organise the race. That's alright for us, but modifications would then have to be made.

"Three years ago, they promised us a new pits and paddock complex. Now we demand a guarantee that it will be done. Furthermore, we want an 18m euro grant, to cover the risk. We want a bank guarantee.

"If we say yes to promoting the race and start selling tickets for 2007, but they don't build a new grandstand, then we have sold seats that aren't available and we leave ourselves open to legal proceedings."
 
Mercedes in McLaren buyout link

If you listen to the muses of the F1 grapevine, then Mercedes-Benz could be preparing to buy the remaining slice of McLaren.

Team boss Ron Dennis and Mansour Ojjeh hold the 60 percent in question, with the German manufacturer already owning the rest.

Martin Whitmarsh would not comment specifically on the buyout rumours, but he did admit this week that Mercedes' 'interest' in the Woking based team 'is higher than ever before, on all fronts'.

He told the Reuters agency: "I think there is absolutely and clearly a commitment (from Mercedes) to being in F1 for a long time."

At the Circuit de Catalunya venue this week, moreover, it was rumoured that McLaren and Stuttgart based Mercedes could collaborate on more sports car projects in the future.
 
Snow at Barcelona

The final day of testing at Barcelona is looking to be a bit of a washout, or maybe even a white-out.

As a result of freezing cold temperatures and intermittent rain, there has been no action thus far this morning.

Then, at 10:30 (GMT) it began snowing.

Inter-team snowball fights!!! :D
 
Sato all set for Super Aguri

Takuma Sato has not yet signed a contract to race for the newly-confirmed Super Aguri squad.

But team chief Aguri Suzuki's long time business partner, Fumito Akita, said from Tokyo that 'final negotiations' were now on.

And he admitted to CBS SportsLine: "Sato will probably drive in the team's number one car."

Regarding the other seat, Akita said the Leafield based team, which will be administered from Japan, was negotiating with Japanese, European and North American drivers.
 
Super Aguri to test in late February

A Super Aguri spokeswoman has confirmed that the team will test in the "latter part of February", probably at Barcelona, which hosts a four-day test from February 21.

The spokeswoman said that at least one of the team's drivers will be announced "soon" with the second probably revealed at the test.

She added, we are now "concentrating on getting the cars to Bahrain, locking down drivers and finalising commercial agreements".

The Japanese team will initially run the 2002 Arrows, which it purchased from former Minardi owner, Paul Stoddart, before introducing its own car.

The Super Aguri will use the Honda V8, however, the team was unable to confirm which engine the Arrows will use.

Furthermore, it is widely speculated that the Japanese team will use Bridgestone rubber, though this also has not been confirmed.
 
Williams F1 says hello to Tata

The WilliamsF1 Team today announced a major new sponsorship association with Tata, one of India's most successful multi-disciplinary commercial conglomerates. The partnership will see the Tata brand displayed on the FW28's nose, the drivers' helmets and overalls, as well as on various locations across the team environment.

An industrial giant, the Tata Group comprises a network of 92 operating companies in seven business sectors, including information systems and communications, engineering, materials, services, energy, consumer products and chemicals, and is one of the driving forces behind the re-emergence of the Asian Tiger phenomenon.

Founded in the last quarter of the 19th century, Tata is today one of India's largest businesses with revenues equivalent to almost 2.6% of the nation's gross domestic product. The Group employs in excess of 220,000 people and exports products and services to over 140 countries worldwide. With a product portfolio ranging from motor cars to tea and from internet services to luxury hotels, the Tata Group can justifiably claim to touch the lives of every one of India's billion inhabitants on a daily basis.

Inherent in the fabric of the Tata Group's guiding principles, expounded since its inception, are the core values of integrity, understanding, excellence, unity and responsibility. Born at the time of de-colonisation, the Group aligned business opportunities with nation building and it is this same ethos that is ingrained in the Group's decision-making process today.

The alliance with the WilliamsF1 Team will provide a unique platform for Tata to communicate its blanket of competencies to a global audience. In particular, Tata will use the partnership to illustrate its technical proficiencies through a range of initiatives, including software development and CAD design. The union of Williams, a niche British engineering company and the industrial muscle of Tata, promises to deliver a formidable range of benefits to both parties.

Following the announcement, Mr. Romit Chaterji, the Tata Group's Sr. Vice President, Corporate Affairs, commented, "We are delighted to be partnering a world-class team like WilliamsF1. Their successful track record over the years in Formula One and their passion for the sport is what sets them apart. In addition, we are happy to support Narain's F1 racing career for another year. Moreover, this association extends beyond mere sponsorship with WilliamsF1 as they will be exploring opportunities to source high technology products and services from the Tata Group."

Frank Williams, Team Principal of the WilliamsF1 Team, confirmed, "To welcome a company of Tata's calibre to the Williams sponsor community is enormously satisfying. Formula One will not only deliver sound business to business opportunities to the Group, but the team will also benefit from their considerable expertise in
various technical fields."
 
Mmmm...tasty...

Looks like my search for a sportier replacement for the Megane Coupe is finally over. :D

Simon/~Flibster

*Didn't Tata produce the car that became the Shi..errr...CityRover??*
 
Williams launches FW28

The WilliamsF1 team has today launched its 2006 car, the FW28, at its Grove factory in the UK. The colour scheme is blue and white, different from the all-blue livery of its winter testing car.

The team's new drivers - Alex Wurz, Nico Rosberg and Narain Karthikeyan were all on hand to join existing driver Mark Webber and team boss Frank Williams to launch the Cosworth-powered car.

The car is both a response to circumstance, including the shifting technical regulations and the new primary partnerships the team has forged with engine supplier Cosworth and tyre company Bridgestone.

The FW28 has been designed around a V8 engine which is reflected in many ways across the aerodynamic strategy of the car, visible particularly in the design of the rear wing with its decambered tips. The target in this area was to maintain downforce while shedding drag at the wing tips. To support this strategy, a tall sidepod concept was adopted which allowed a larger undercut and therefore smooth and efficient air flow to the rear of the car.

While designers have been forced to grapple with recouping power losses through aerodynamic efficiencies, the FIA dealt another blow to designers by imposing a new restriction on bodywork to the front of the car, removing the bottom parts of any forward barge boards and, in the process, dramatically altering flow dynamics around the front of the car. The response in the Williams design office has been to pursue a zero keel option to the management of the front wishbones.

This area of design has been one of fundamental contention and revision across the Formula One paddock, but the zero keel solution now clearly provides the most efficient aerodynamic solution. In addition, the team has progressed the cascaded front wing, trialled successfully in the last two Grands Prix of 2005.
 
THE LAUNCH OF THE WILLIAMSF1 FW28

January 27, 2006, Oxford, UK. WilliamsF1 launched their 2006 season race car, the FW28, at their headquarters near Oxford this afternoon. The FW28 is a manifestly purposeful race car, its defining visual cue being the aggressive barbed sting on the back of the engine cover.

The car is both a response to circumstance, including the shifting technical regulations and the new primary partnerships the team has forged with engine supplier Cosworth and tyre company Bridgestone, as well as being its own clear statement of intent.

Clearly the biggest transition is the shift away from 3.0l V10 motive power in favour of a 2.4l V8, and in Williams’ case, the new partnership with Cosworth. With the associated power losses all teams will encounter, all Formula One designers have been tackling a demand for higher aerodynamic efficiency to help compensate. In the case of the FW28, this became a fundamental design parameter for the car and is reflected in many ways across the aerodynamic strategy of the car, visible particularly in the design of the rear wing with its decambered tips. The target in this area was to maintain downforce while shedding drag at the wing tips.

To support this strategy, a tall sidepod concept was adopted which allowed a larger undercut and therefore smooth and efficient air flow to the rear of the car. While designers have been forced to grapple with recouping power losses through aerodynamic efficiencies, the FIA dealt another blow to designers by imposing a new restriction on bodywork to the front of the car, removing the bottom parts of any forward barge boards and, in the process, dramatically altering flow dynamics around the front of the car. The response in the Williams design office has been to pursue a zero keel option to the management of the front wishbones. This area of design has been one of fundamental contention and revision across the Formula One paddock, but the zero keel solution now clearly provides the most efficient aerodynamic solution. In addition, the team has progressed the cascaded front wing, trialled successfully in the last two Grands Prix of 2005.

The revised three part qualifying format, essentially with the first two elements on low fuel and the final session based on race fuel, has had major implications for the approach to 2006 race strategy and in turn, with the design and all-important capacity of the fuel cell.

Equally, the regulators’ decision – after a season of outlawing the practice – to re-enshrine tyre changes has a clear line of influence over the design of the elements of the car that respond to the changing parameters of tyre wear, fundamentally in relation to the mechanical set-up of suspension elements and weight distribution.

If the external factors were not sufficient to keep the design office at Williams busy with the incarnation of the FW28, the technically motivated switch to Bridgestone tyres (which the team last raced in 2000) has demanded a complete revision of weight distribution across the car and a re-formatting of suspension geometry in order to harmonise the dynamic characteristics of the FW28 with the qualities of the Bridgestone tyre. Technical Director, Sam Michael, commented, “The FW28 has been a large departure from previous Williams’ designs due in part to new aerodynamic efficiency targets, but also the mechanical challenges of changing to Bridgestone tyres and Cosworth’s V8 engine. It has been a really interesting car to design and I believe that will continue to be the case during its development in 2006.”

The shift to Cosworth has been another fundamental element in the genesis of the FW28. The development of the CA V8 has been characterised by an open and culturally convergent philosophy between the two organisations, which has been nothing short of positive and productive. As Tim Routsis, the Cosworth CEO reflected, “Following the dramatic shift in the engine regulation landscape, we are approaching an immensely exciting 2006 Formula One season with a mindset of cautious optimism. Our partnership with WilliamsF1 continues to strengthen and the highly motivated nature of the relationship has produced extremely encouraging results since track testing began. The CA2006 V8 was first installed in the WilliamsF1 FW27C interim car in November last year, since when it has completed in excess of 7,000kms of test mileage. Progress achieved so far by Williams and Cosworth validates the expectation of the partnership enjoying a competitive campaign this season.”

Alongside the new V8 powerplant in the drivetrain design strategy has been the progression of Williams seamless shift technology which is anticipated to come on stream in the early part of the 2006 season. This seven-speed, continuous torque gearbox owes much of its development progression to the joint validation work conducted on Cosworth’s dynos in Northampton, indicative of the depth and strength of the technical partnership. Seamless transmission can be worth up to 0.4 seconds over the course of an average racing lap.

Fundamental rule changes and new technical partnerships with Bridgestone & Cosworth have all equated to a heady cocktail for the Williams design team to tackle. However, the FW28 is a first design for Sam Michael’s new combination of Chief Aerodynamicist, Loic Bigois and Chief Designer, Jörg Zander. For the first time too, the design team has had the benefit of two onsite wind tunnels dedicated to the new car from the outset.

The team has progressed the development of the FW28, together with the input from its technical partners, with an added degree of relish over the winter. Although not openly admitted, the extra challenge presented by the rule changes has galvanised the engineers into a mood of positive engagement. This is, in fact, where Williams should be at its best. For Sam Michael the objective is clear, “The FW28 has a lot resting on its shoulders as it must re-establish Williams at the sharp end. There are many good teams in Formula One now and how to beat them is simple – design a faster car.”

The FW28 commences its first validation runs on Tuesday 31 January in Valencia, Spain, ahead of its race debut in Bahrain on 12 March.
 
The Williams FW28

Most people involved in the intimacies of Formula One place great value in the principle of stability in the technical regulations - from the rule makers themselves to their intellectual adversaries, the design engineers. Routine changes to the rules that govern the sport cost money and, from an engineer’s perspective, changes normally imply more restriction and less freedom to innovate, to exploit new materials or to pursue a promising development break. Generally, then, rule changes are the stuff of nightmares to most ambitious Formula One designers.

However, at a more forensic level of analysis, change to the technical regulations could actually be considered the engineer’s friend. With convergence of technological infrastructure between competing Formula One teams and the reduction in latitude for genuine innovation imposed by tighter regulations, the engineering initiative is now largely process-driven. Teams are all working at the very margins of improvement, albeit tenths of a percent in downforce gain or nominal improvements in mass transfer or CofG. Shifting the battle to one that is process-driven means that the team that gets its small increments of improvement to its race car the quickest, and in the most reliable way, will win.

So the 2006 regulations, which have defined the development of the FW28, represent in many ways one of the occasional opportunities that come knocking on an engineering department’s door, presenting a step change in a number of key design areas, which in turn promises a rich, rewarding and unpredictable season in prospect.

Clearly the biggest transition is the shift away from 3.0l v10 motive power in favour of 2.4l v8, and in Williams’ case, the new partnership with Cosworth. With the associated power losses all teams will encounter, everyone is facing a demand for higher aerodynamic efficiency to help compensate. In the case of the FW28, this became a fundamental design parameter for the car and is reflected in many ways across the aerodynamic strategy of the car, visible particularly in the design of the rear wing with its decambered tips. The target here was to maintain downforce while shedding drag at the wing tips. Additionally, a tall sidepod concept was adopted which allowed an even larger undercut and therefore smooth and efficient air flow to the rear of the car.

While designers have been forced to grapple with recouping power losses through aerodynamic efficiencies, the FIA dealt another blow to designers by imposing a new restriction on bodywork to the front of the car, removing the bottom parts of any forward barge boards and, in the process, dramatically altering flow dynamics around the front of the car. The response in the Williams design office has been to pursue a zero keel option to the management of the front wishbones. This area of design has been one of fundamental contention and revision across the Formula One paddock, but the zero keel solution now clearly provides the most efficient aerodynamic solution. In addition, the team has progressed the cascaded front wing, trialled successfully in the last two Grands Prix of 2005.

The revised three part qualifying format, essentially with the first two elements on low fuel and the final session based on race fuel, has had major implications for the approach to 2006 race strategy and in turn, with the design and all-important capacity of the fuel cell. Equally, the regulators decision – after a season of outlawing the practice – to re-enshrine tyre changes has a clear line of influence over the design of the elements of the car that respond to the changing parameters of tyre wear, fundamentally in relation to the mechanical set-up of suspension elements and weight distribution.

If the external factors were not sufficient to keep the design office at Williams busy with the incarnation of the FW28, the technically motivated switch to Bridgestone tyres (which the team last raced in 2000) has demanded a complete revision of weight distribution across the car and a re-formatting of suspension geometry in order to harmonise the dynamic characteristics of the FW28 with the qualities of the Bridgestone tyre. Technical Director, Sam Michael, commented, “The FW28 has been a large departure from previous Williams’ designs due in part to new aerodynamic efficiency targets, but also the mechanical challenges of changing to Bridgestone tyres and Cosworth’s v8 engine. It has been a really interesting car to design and I believe that will continue to be the case during its development in 2006.”

The shift to Cosworth has been another fundamental element in the genesis of the FW28. The development of the CA V8 has been characterised by an open and culturally convergent philosophy between the two organisations, which has been nothing short of positive and productive. As Alex Hitzinger, the architect of the CA V8 reflected, “We both have something to prove this year and this is when we will be at our best.”

Alongside the new V8 powerplant in the drivetrain design strategy has been the progression of Williams seamless shift technology which is anticipated to come on stream in the early part of the 2006 season. This seven-speed continuous torque gearbox owes much of its development progression to the joint validation work conducted on Cosworth’s dynos in Northampton, indicative of the depth and strength of the technical partnership. Seamless transmission can be worth up to 0.4 seconds over the course of an average racing lap.

The team has progressed the development of the FW28, together with the input from its technical partners, with an added degree of relish over the winter. Although not openly admitted, the extra challenge presented by the rule changes has galvanised the engineers into a mood of positive engagement. This is, in fact, where Williams should be at its best. For Sam Michael the objective is clear, “The FW28 has a lot resting on its shoulders as it must re-establish Williams at the sharp end. There are many good teams in Formula One now and how to beat them is simple – design a faster car.”

Fundamental rule changes and new technical partnerships with Bridgestone & Cosworth all equate to a heady cocktail for the Williams design team to tackle. However, the FW28 is a first design for Sam Michael’s new combination of Chief Aerodynamicist, Loic Bigois and Chief Designer, Jörg Zander. For the first time too, the design team has had the benefit of two onsite wind tunnels dedicated to the new car from the outset and while nothing is meaningful until one Sunday in early March, certainly the circumstances of the FW28’s genesis could not be better for Williams, nor indeed could the response from its creators.
 
THINGS YOU DIDN’T KNOW ABOUT THE FW28

The FW28 is the first car to fully benefit from the recently improved WilliamsF1 aerodynamic facilities, including two full time, on site wind tunnels. The car uses a zero keel chassis concept, developed to improve the aerodynamic efficiency of the car. The change in FIA aerodynamic regulations at the front of the car was a significant input to the development of the FW28 chassis.

With a reduction in power (as the engine has dropped from a 3.0l v10 to a 2.4l v8), a higher aerodynamic efficiency is required. This is the main reason for the FW28 rear wing design and the disappearance of less efficient components such as rear light wings and secondary roll hoop wings.

Cars are rebuilt between every Grand Prix. This involves full strip down and servicing of the fuel system, hydraulics, steering, gearbox and electrical systems. In addition to this, all the composite and metallic parts are inspected and crack checked for damage.

It takes two days to build an FW28 from a bare chassis to a fully rolling car.
 
rpstewart said:
Just seen the Williams, there are only a couple of car shots on their site (www.williamsf1.com) and they don't really give you a good idea of the shape of the car.

The official photographer should be shot though, the photos are totally out of focus. Maybe it's time to send Frank a cv ;)


They're not great are they.... :(

I've done better than that with my Canon A80...

Got a few other shots from elsewhere as well though.

Simon/~Flibster
 
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