2011 Team mate Wars

dannyjo22

dannyjo22

dannyjo22

Caporegime
Joined
9 May 2005
Posts
31,898
Location
Cambridge
Rather than fill up the race threads with constant 'bickering' er debate ;) on team mates performance, how about a thread on how they are doing in comaprison to each other.

Team mates as of Canada qfy.


Vettel out-qualified Webber 6-1
Hamilton out-qualified Button 5-2
Alonso out-qualified Massa 7-0
Rosberg out-qualified M Sch 6-1
Petrov out-qualified Heidfeld 5-2
Barrichello out-qualified Maldonado 3-4
di Resta out-qualified Sutil 6-1
Kobayashi out-qualified Perez 3-4
Buemi out-qualified Alguersuari 6-1
Kovalainen out-qualified Trulli 6-1
Liuzzi out-qualified Karthi 6-1
Glock out-qualified D'Ambrosio 5-2

Race finishes after Canada

Vettel out-raced Webber 7-0
Hamilton out-raced Button 4-3
Alonso out-raced Massa 4-3
Rosberg out-raced M Sch 4-3
Petrov out-raced Heidfeld 3-4
Barrichello out-raced Maldonado 6-1
di Resta out-raced Sutil 3-3
Kobayashi out-raced Perez 3-1
Buemi out-raced Alguersuari 6-1
Kovalainen out-raced Trulli 2-5
Liuzzi out-raced Karthi 4-2
Glock out-raced D'Ambrosio 2-5


Average qualifying gaps after Canada

Vettel to Webber -0.436
Hamilton to Button -0.01
Alonso to Massa -0.383
Rosberg to M Sch -0.251
Petrov to Heidfeld -0.616
Barrichello to Maldonado +0.428
di Resta to Sutil -0.825
Kobayashi to Perez -0.139
Buemi to Alguersuari -0.428
Kovalainen to Trulli -0.314
Liuzzi to Karthi -0.616
Glock to D'Ambrosio -0.471

Average qually position

Vet 1.14
Web 4.86
Ham 4
But 4.29
Alo 4.29
Mas 6.86
Msc 9.57
Ros 6.14
Hei 13.86
Pet 8.14
Bar 14.86
Mal 13.29
Sut 14.43
DIR 12.71
Kob 13.43
Per 13.6
Bue 12.71
Alg 14.14
Kov 18.14
Tru 19.14
Kar 23.83
Lui 21.83
Glo 21
Amb 21.43

Average finish position (races finished)

Vet 1.3 (7)
Web 3.6 (7)
Ham 3.8 (6)
But 3.6 (7)
Alo 4.5 (6)
Mas 7.0 (5)
Msc 7.8 (5)
Ros 8.5 (6)
Hei 8.3 (6)
Pet 8.8 (6)
Bar 12.2 (5)
Mal 17.0 (4)
Sut 11.3 (6)
DIR 12.2 (6)
Kob 8.2 (6)
Per 13.3 (3)
Bue 11.1 (7)
Alg 13.0 (5)
Kov 16.0 (5)
Tru 16.2 (6)
Kar 19.8 (5)
Lui 18.3 (4)
Glo 17.8 (4)
Amb 17.2 (6)



Only surprise for me so far is Di Resta, I think he's doing a really good job against Sutil. Msc on course for another season of pain from Rosberg. Unless he's turned that round by 2/3rds distance he really should think again about a 3rd year because the team would need to look at not giving him a new contract and that will be a touch embarrasing.

I have to admit Heidfeld is doing much better than I thought he would. A real shame that car was never in the hands of Kubica, I think it could have been a challenger for race wins this season.

Webber and Massa of course also under pressure for a contract next year, I really don't know who I'd replace them with that might do a better job.
 
Last edited:
I have to admit about being wrong about Button so far as well this year. I expected him to be further away from Hamilton this year than last. Even though he has had a year at the team I expected not running KERs in 09 would put him on the back foot more to Lewis.

So far he has coped really well, the change in tyres might have helped level it up but so far JB has done a great job.

Webber needs a change in luck before the guy gets broken :(
 
Team mates as of China qfy.


Vettel out-qualified Webber 3-0
Hamilton out-qualified Button 2-1
Alonso out-qualified Massa 3-0
Rosberg out-qualified M Sch 3-0
Petrov out-qualified Heidfeld 2-1
Barrichello out-qualified Maldonado 2-1
di Resta out-qualified Sutil 3-0
Kobayashi out-qualified Perez 2-1
Buemi out-qualified Alguersuari 2-1
Kovalainen out-qualified Trulli 3-0
Liuzzi out-qualified Karthi 3-0
Glock out-qualified D'Ambrosio 2-1

Race finishes after China

Vettel out-raced Webber 3-0
Hamilton out-raced Button 2-1
Alonso out-raced Massa 1-2
Rosberg out-raced M Sch 2-1
Petrov out-raced Heidfeld 2-1
Barrichello out-raced Maldonado 3-0
di Resta out-raced Sutil 2-1
Kobayashi out-raced Perez 2-1
Buemi out-raced Alguersuari 3-0
Kovalainen out-raced Trulli 2-1
Liuzzi out-raced Karthi 2-0
Glock out-raced D'Ambrosio 2-1

Rosberg did a great job again, best thing that's happened to him is having MS raise his stock. Solid drive again even though MS had one of his best performances since returning Nico did a better job.

Massa did a decent job again, for a while it looked like Alonso was just biding his time but clearly the car had something broken on the rear wing.

Di Resta won't be in a midfield car for long. I wonder how long it will be before Ferrari get in touch.

Williams letting the Hulk go still doesn't make sense to me.
 
arknor said:
danny is very biased against schumacher go read some of his older posts
Click to expand...

No I'm not for the first half of last year I was defending his pace. Someone else on this forum accused me of being a MS fanboy.

He's had enough time, he's old, slow and in the way of some of the decent younger drivers. Merc are too scared to sack him and they have to hope he quits with dignity.

They sure as hell won't extend his contract so either he goes this year or the end of next.

He's been cut enough slack, the simple fact is he doesn't have it anymore in the current car format. If we still had the 2005 regulations I fancy he would be in the top 8 regularly but it isn't and he should move on as well.

Just how much time do you want to give him in one of the better teams on the grid while stinking up Q1 and 2?
 
arknor said:
right rosberg needs to get out aswell

heres some facts for you ignorant people who dont pay much attention to stuff other than what you see on the cameras.


its obviously an extremely ignorant and biased opinion that is not based on fact because schumacher more than holds his own against rosberg.
Click to expand...

I don't care about sector times, you can find times where Webber has been well beaten and find he has fastest lap and better sector times than Vettel.

The Fact is he isn't holding his own against Rosberg, it doesn't matter if his sector times are better for one section of the race when he is mutliple positions behind.

To say that MS is holding his own against Rosberg is the talk of a crazy fanboy that just cannot let go. His time is past, get over it. Again I'm not arguing against his past ability, just his current one which aint worth having in F1. To say Rosberg has to go as well when he's dumped on MS from day one is laughable.

What's the point of his even being there, even if the car was the best on the grid he would still not beat rosberg. In the same car he wouldn't beat Button, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Kubica or likely even Webber.

For him to win races again will take a car far better than the rest of the grid and Rosberg to have reliability problems.

Personally I don't think Mercedes are gaining anything having him there and there are young drivers who could be brought on.

You keep looking at sector times though because that tells you exactly why he keeps failing in QFY and ending up down the road from his team mate.

Trulli could put together sector times.
 
arknor said:
schumacher scored points in 2 races this year rosberg only 1 , the numbers speak for themselfs enjoy your trolling lol
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure all the drivers would be happy with their team mate scoring in every single race even if they only scored in half the races if they still ended up with DOUBLE the points at the end of the season.

But hey as long as the stint times are good.
 
Garido said:
This is only stat based on not based and doesn't factor in on technical problems right? Just basically where you finish rather than how well the person raced?
Click to expand...

Yeah sure, if you both don't finish it just goes by your classified finishing position in relation to your team mate.

Of course you could have a scenario where say MS was on pole but crashed in the race but that would be reflected in the QFY stat.

People will argue the merits of team mates all year long, I just thought it was fun to keep it all in one place.:)
 
arknor said:
time for alonso to quit to the retirement home along with schumacher based on china then
Click to expand...


Are you 6?

So because everyone disagrees with you they are a troll?

Whose basing this discussion just on china?
The FACT remains Alonso destroyed his team mate last year despite a patchy start to the year, the FACT remains he's ahead of massa in the standings now despite a patchy start.

The fact remains Schumacher got humiliated last year and is well on the way to being humiliated again.

No one is basing this on just china except you. Every one has inconsistent moments against their team mate, Alonso, Hamilton have had blips. Schumachers results against his team mate is more than a blip.
 
arknor said:
may i remind you that this thread you created is titled "2011" last year or any year prior is irelevant.

the fact is schumacher more than deserved his place on the grid today by merit alone you can disagree until your blue in the face the facts are he is still fast enough and he has proven it thank you for your time
Click to expand...

I was just proving how idiotic your statement was that they should get rid of Alonso based on China. Regardless you still lose because Alonso still has more points than Massa and out qualified him every time, which suggests to me he's faster.

Where as MS has been beaten 3-0 in qfy while failing to even get in Q3, somewhere his team mate has not failed to get yet.

So clearly he is not there on merit and with what Rosberg is able to do with the car is wasting a seat.

The facts are in 2011, Alonso has more points, Alonso has out qualified his team mate 3-0.

Rosberg has more points and has humiliated his team mate in qualifying.

Dispute that.

Never mind I'm pretty sure MS will actually make Q3 in the next race.
 
I totally agree, his time is up. If it was anyone else they would be fired. They cannot give him a third year so they might as well make up an injury story and move him out. Give a young driver a chance as MS has already written off this year for a title challenge. Give a new driver a run to get familiar with the car and team.
 
Team mates as of Turkey qfy.


Vettel out-qualified Webber 4-0
Hamilton out-qualified Button 3-1
Alonso out-qualified Massa 4-0
Rosberg out-qualified M Sch 4-0
Petrov out-qualified Heidfeld 3-1
Barrichello out-qualified Maldonado 4-0
di Resta out-qualified Sutil 3-1
Kobayashi out-qualified Perez 2-2
Buemi out-qualified Alguersuari 3-1
Kovalainen out-qualified Trulli 4-0
Liuzzi out-qualified Karthi 4-0
Glock out-qualified D'Ambrosio 2-2

Race finishes after Turkey

Vettel out-raced Webber 4-0
Hamilton out-raced Button 3-1
Alonso out-raced Massa 2-2
Rosberg out-raced M Sch 3-1
Petrov out-raced Heidfeld 2-2
Barrichello out-raced Maldonado 4-0
di Resta out-raced Sutil 2-2
Kobayashi out-raced Perez 4-0
Buemi out-raced Alguersuari 4-0
Kovalainen out-raced Trulli 2-2
Liuzzi out-raced Karthi 2-1
Glock out-raced D'Ambrosio 3-1

So the drivers after 4 races that have beaten their team mate in qually at every race, Vettel, Rubens, Alonso, Rosberg, Luizzi and surprisingly for me Kovalainen.
 
Look drivers don't develope the cars the engineers do. They no longer do engine developement and all the aero is done by engineers.

All the feedback drivers are giving is where the car is understeering, oversteering, balance etc. CS nuts once commented on here on the limited feedback the drivers are giving and yet red bull isn't too shabby.

The best cars are where the best engineers/designers are, not the drivers with the best feedback. Hakkinen drove 2 of the all time great mclarens funnily enough by newey and listen to that guys feedback.

Honda were getting feedback for years from button, one half decent season. Brawn arrives spends almost 2 years on a car and from day one it was the best.

Drivers do not develope cars and Mercedes employed MS to drive the wheels off it. It's not like MS was a great pitlane developement guru for ferrari when he retired. His area of expertise and knowledge in F1 has gone.

The teams do very well developing the cars with no testing, all the do is react to the data the computers are giving them and balance feedback from drivers.
 
Skeeter said:
Sorry danny, didn't realise you were an expert on this. Which team do you work for?
Click to expand...

Oh I'm sorry lets not allow any F1 chat on this forum, you may as well delete all your own posts as well.

I've spoken in person to a engineer of a world champion and a friend of mines father was an engineer at Williams for many years before his death in the late 90's.

Forgetting all that you only have to listen to the drivers, limited knowledge and they all spout about big upgrades for the next race, because thats what the teams keep telling them. It keeps them happy and gives them something to say.

How often did button spout it in 09 only to learn when the season ended that Brawn all but gave up on developing the car mid season.

The drivers tell the cars how they feel and the engineers find solutions. It's hardly the same as all this guff you hear about drivers developing cars.

You only had to listen to Massa and Smedley talking in the pre race to see Smedley talking about the exact set and speed required while massa stood there nodding.

The role drivers play in the developement of a modern F1 car is always overstated.
 
Setroc said:
Thanks for putting this together in a place for easy reference danny. Another stat that might be good in here is average qualifying difference. It's one of those stats that can be really telling, such as Rosberg averaging 7 tenths faster than Schumi in quali so far this season. That's an incredible amount. Also it's a stat that isn't readily available anywhere.
Click to expand...

Here you go :)

Difficult because you can only do the time in the session where they both set a time. So with MS who has failed so admirably to get into Q3 in comparison to his team mate the times have to be taken 3 times from Q2 and once from Q3.

Average qualifying gaps after Turkey

Vettel to Webber -0.594
Hamilton to Button -0.261
Alonso to Massa -0.336
Rosberg to M Sch -0.673
Petrov to Heidfeld -0.83
Barrichello to Maldonado -0.276
di Resta to Sutil -1.197
Kobayashi to Perez -0.452
Buemi to Alguersuari -0.17
Kovalainen to Trulli -0.388
Liuzzi to Karthi -0.861
Glock to D'Ambrosio -0.09
 
sunama said:
Danny, can you add all these stats to the first post of this thread? Make sure that the first post of your thread has the latest stats. Thanks
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm working nights at the minute but when I'm off I intend to try and tidy it up and add Average Qualifying and Race finish positions as well in one post.

Agree with Di Resta, that stat surprised me as well. Stunning gap.
 
Fully updated and added qfy stats and race stats.

Team mates as of China qfy.


Vettel out-qualified Webber 3-0
Hamilton out-qualified Button 2-1
Alonso out-qualified Massa 3-0
Rosberg out-qualified M Sch 3-0
Petrov out-qualified Heidfeld 2-1
Barrichello out-qualified Maldonado 2-1
di Resta out-qualified Sutil 3-0
Kobayashi out-qualified Perez 2-1
Buemi out-qualified Alguersuari 2-1
Kovalainen out-qualified Trulli 3-0
Liuzzi out-qualified Karthi 3-0
Glock out-qualified D'Ambrosio 2-1

Race finishes after China

Vettel out-raced Webber 3-0
Hamilton out-raced Button 2-1
Alonso out-raced Massa 1-2
Rosberg out-raced M Sch 2-1
Petrov out-raced Heidfeld 2-1
Barrichello out-raced Maldonado 3-0
di Resta out-raced Sutil 2-1
Kobayashi out-raced Perez 2-1
Buemi out-raced Alguersuari 3-0
Kovalainen out-raced Trulli 2-1
Liuzzi out-raced Karthi 2-0
Glock out-raced D'Ambrosio 2-1


Average qualifying gaps after Turkey

Vettel to Webber -0.594
Hamilton to Button -0.261
Alonso to Massa -0.336
Rosberg to M Sch -0.673
Petrov to Heidfeld -0.83
Barrichello to Maldonado -0.276
di Resta to Sutil -1.197
Kobayashi to Perez -0.452
Buemi to Alguersuari -0.17
Kovalainen to Trulli -0.388
Liuzzi to Karthi -0.861
Glock to D'Ambrosio -0.09

Average qually position

Vet 1.0
Web 6.5
Ham 2.8
But 4.0
Alo 5.0
Mas 7.8
Msc 11.0
Ros 5.8
Hei 12.3
Pet 7.8
Bar 14.5
Mal 16.0
Sut 14.0
DIR 12.3
Kob 14.0
Per 14.0
Bue 11.8
Alg 12.3
Kov 18.8
Tru 19.8
Kar 23.8
Lui 22.5
Glo 21.5
Amb 21.3

Average finish position (races finished)

Vet 1.4 (4)
Web 3.5 (4)
Ham 3.8 (4)
But 4.0 (4)
Alo 5.0 (4)
Mas 7.3 (4)
Msc 9.7 (3)
Ros 7.3 (3)
Hei 9.3 (4)
Pet 9.3 (4)
Bar 13.0 (2)
Mal 17.5 (2)
Sut 12.0 (4)
DIR 10.3 (3)
Kob 9.0 (3)
Per 15.5 (2)
Bue 11.0 (4)
Alg 13.7 (3)
Kov 16.7 (4)
Tru 16.7 (3)
Kar 22.0 (2)
Lui 22.0 (2)
Glo 18.5 (2)
Amb 18.0 (3)
 
Kenai said:
Do we know how he's calculating these numbers?

For example, in the first race of the year, Sutil's Q2 time was 1.31.407 vs Di Resta's 1.26.739. A huge gap. However, in Q1, Sutil had posted a 1.26.245 which beat anything Di Resta managed in qualifying.

So Sutil stuffed up Q2 by spinning on his flying lap and thus made a huge time gap but really, looking beyond the numbers, he was the faster of the two at that circuit.

Things like that 5 second deficit really skew the numbers in Di Resta's favour. I suspect if you were doing proper statistical analysis on this data, that particular result would be discarded as an outlier and the resulting figure would be much more in line with the differences seen elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Yes it's the comparison where both drivers set a time in a session. Why would you discard times where a team mate has stuffed up. It's just a fun stat like any other. Depends how deep you want to look.

It's not really all that serious, I just did it for fun to get some of the banter and discussion out of the main race threads. We have a big forum and every thing keeps getting junked into one spot. :)
 
So you are saying if a team mate stuffs up the stat should be discarded to the detriment of the better driver who keeps it on the tarmac?

So say Di resta outqualifies Sutil 17-1 because sutil crashes or makes a mistake 17 times but the one time he doesn't stuff up he beats Diresta by 0.5 because direstas KERs fails (for example) sutil would have a stat that was 0.5 better even though he only outqualified him once.

;)

So do you want mechanical and Kers failures discarded as well to get a fairer result, what about weather conditions, wind direction, track temp.

You could never get a totally accurate balanced stat which couldnt be debated on accuracy :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom