2016 : A Pivotal Year For AMD, Nvidia, PC Gaming And VR

andybird123 · 30 Dec 2015 at 16:49

tommybhoy said:
What's with the AMD slide chuckles all of a sudden, it's not as if Nvidia don't do slides, they let the 970 spec slide for long enough

Steam support Linux=logical progression to Vulcan, common sense I imagine is enough to assume their VR implementation won't be DX only considering Steams direction, do you think Steam VR won't be supported on Steam OS?

Yeah it would be great if it happened, if you check back through my post history I had high hopes for steamOS, just looking at what is on steam/linux now and what is announced - remember I replied to someone saying that DX would be killed off by Vulkan, it is something to hope for, but its not something that can be put across as fact at this point

AlamoX · 30 Dec 2015 at 18:56

andybird123 said:
there's an awful lot of assumption and very little fact checking going on in here

Vulkan isn't even released yet - games take 2-3 years to develop as a minimum so anyone developing a VR game right now can't be using Vulkan
PS4 doesn't use Vulkan so Sony would have to be pressed in to adding support

people have spent the last 10 years wishing for the death of DX and it hasn't happened yet - it would be great if true but I can't really see it happening in the next 5 years

in fact of all of the currently announced big VR games, all of them have said DX support, none have stated Vulkan support that I can find (if you have that info then please share)

HTC have hinted at a "major breakthrough" that they'll be unveiling at CES next week, interesting to see what that will be

i didnt claim that anything i said was fact, kept saying i guess , i think , my opinion... i am saying that if i was a developper, it's easier and cheaper using vulcan, than DX12, am not saying valve will take over microsoft, but that VR will probably be a good way for valve to steer away ppl from windows to steamos, and all of this is guess work, no facts.
valve isnt in a hurry to release their OS as long as their headset and vulcan arn't ready, but the release of these 3 will come at the same time frame

andybird123 · 30 Dec 2015 at 19:19

AlamoX said:
i didnt claim that anything i said was fact, kept saying i guess , i think , my opinion... i am saying that if i was a developper, it's easier and cheaper using vulcan, than DX12, am not saying valve will take over microsoft, but that VR will probably be a good way for valve to steer away ppl from windows to steamos, and all of this is guess work, no facts.
valve isnt in a hurry to release their OS as long as their headset and vulcan arn't ready, but the release of these 3 will come at the same time frame

I've just re-read the post I quoted, you didn't use any of those words, you stated lots of things abou AMD having the advantage etc

You've just it again, saying that Vulkan IS cheaper than DX12

Howling · 30 Dec 2015 at 19:20

bru said:
As yet announced, only a fool would think that Microsoft wont do something, seeing as all the opposition are doing it.

I thought they were in business with Oculus? Since it's coming with an XBone pad and everything, I think I saw somewhere that MS were working on the rift support for XBone too. Can't see them developing their own headset as well as supporting another, seems like a waste of resources.

Gregster · 30 Dec 2015 at 19:26

Howling said:
I thought they were in business with Oculus? Since it's coming with an XBone pad and everything, I think I saw somewhere that MS were working on the rift support for XBone too. Can't see them developing their own headset as well as supporting another, seems like a waste of resources.

They are also working on that Hololens AR device as well (~~Actual~~ Augmented Reality). Not sure how far away that is but looks very promising.

https://www.microsoft.com/microsoft-hololens/en-us

GSXR Gaz Mc · 30 Dec 2015 at 19:32

what if u were glasses or have bad eyes

anything closer then 5" is blurry to me

AlamoX · 30 Dec 2015 at 19:35

AlamoX said:
personally i think AMD got a clear advantage when it comes to VR, not only because of the async, but also think that the major VR API will be vulcan, not DX12.
after occulus got aquired by facebook, there was a shift into what these mounted displays are going to be used for, facebook made it clear that they are more interested in the social, medical, educational, military aspect of it more than gaming.
on the other hand Valve Headgear is mainly focused on gaming, steamOS will be based on vulcan, the steam platform is a heaven for indie devs, who will bombard it with VR games, and explore new concepts.
the Xbox doesn't have VR headset, while PS4 does and probably the new nintendoNX will too, gives even more incentive for devs to first develope on vulcan, that will make it easier to port between PC & the PS4 because of the unified GCN architecture.
seriously i dont see why a VR developer would need DX12 at all, vulcan works on windows/mac/linux(steamos), and mantle(integrated into vulcan) makes PS4/nintendo port easier and cheaper, and you dont have to wait for the install base to grow, come to think of it, things look gloomy for DX12
i honestly wouldn't be surprise if valve takes a good chunk of market share from microsoft, if VR takes off correctly.

andybird123 said:
I've just re-read the post I quoted, you didn't use any of those words, you stated lots of things abou AMD having the advantage etc

You've just it again, saying that Vulkan IS cheaper than DX12

clearly i was stating my opinion, not facts, i can't help my self but think that VR is a good opportunity for valve compared to microsoft, if used correctly, could really be a game changer for an alternative OS/API.
about vulcan being cheaper than DX12 is not an opinion it's a fact, it's multiplatform, against windows alone, in what planet that isnt cheaper for developpers ?

Gregster · 30 Dec 2015 at 19:36

GSXR Gaz Mc said:
what if u were glasses or have bad eyes

anything closer then 5" is blurry to me

You can wear glasses on the DK2 (my Mrs wears them) with no problem so I expect the same with the newer CV1 and Vive.

andybird123 · 30 Dec 2015 at 19:49

AlamoX said:
clearly i was stating my opinion, not facts, i can't help my self but think that VR is a good opportunity for valve compared to microsoft, if used correctly, could really be a game changer for an alternative OS/API.
about vulcan being cheaper than DX12 is not an opinion it's a fact, it's multiplatform, against windows alone, in what planet that isnt cheaper for developpers ?

Because you don't know how multiplatform it is, that linux makes up about 1% of gamers currently, how much work is actually involved in updating a game for each platform, that if sony have a headset coming do you definitely know that MS have nothing similar in development (meaning devs may end up needing to support DX on Xbox anyway), PS4 doesnt support Vulkan...

There's too many variables that unless you are actually a full on game dev / producer you are still just guessing

AlamoX · 30 Dec 2015 at 20:22

andybird123 said:
Because you don't know how multiplatform it is, that linux makes up about 1% of gamers currently, how much work is actually involved in updating a game for each platform, that if sony have a headset coming do you definitely know that MS have nothing similar in development (meaning devs may end up needing to support DX on Xbox anyway), PS4 doesnt support Vulkan...

There's too many variables that unless you are actually a full on game dev / producer you are still just guessing

yes there is many variables, how good steamOS will be, how well VR will be adopted by consumers, how hard microsoft is gonna push VR on xbox(lol since there is 0 word about it so far, they went with hololens, that later broke and the developing studio closed).
but in the end as a developper if you have DX12 and vulcan with teh same exact features (which so far no announcement made for any exclusive feature that gives him an edge over the other)
why would you use DX12 over vulcan ? give me incentives.

the game you develope on DX12 only work on windows( install base 15-20%), the one you develope on vulcan, work on windows(100% install base),mac, and linux
so far MS didnt announce any plans for VR on it's console, so even the little incentive to go with DX12 to port isn't there, and the console sold so badly it isn't even worth it, unless microsoft actualy pays you, so if they are going to do that if they ever decide to add VR to xbox, they can pay for full port to DX12.
am not even getting to the part where valve would encourage devs on their platform to go vulcan 1st
i wont lie to you, i do not like microsoft monopoly on OS, i would really like to see an alternative, especialy if it's a gaming one, microsoft keeps shooting itself in the foot over and over, they fragment their own install base by being too greedy, how come kronos with no where near the resources microsoft have, manage to make an API across all platform and across all windows iterations ( at least the major ones ), while microsoft can't even make an api across of it's own windows iterations, even with DX12 they made the most important and anticipated features windows 10 exclusive, so yes i surely HOPE steamOS gets some market share, and vulcan to be the main API from now on, possible that it wont happen, but if it does it would be swell.

adolf hamster · 30 Dec 2015 at 20:23

Gregster said:
You can wear glasses on the DK2 (my Mrs wears them) with no problem so I expect the same with the newer CV1 and Vive.

I would have thought, given it already relies on optics to work, that adjustability for eyes might be better?

Saves the uncomfortableness of wearing glasses with it.

andybird123 · 30 Dec 2015 at 20:53

AlamoX said:
yes there is many variables, how good steamOS will be, how well VR will be adopted by consumers, how hard microsoft is gonna push VR on xbox(lol since there is 0 word about it so far, they went with hololens, that later broke and the developing studio closed).
but in the end as a developper if you have DX12 and vulcan with teh same exact features (which so far they seem they are no one announced any exclusive feature that gives him an edge over the other)
why would you use DX12 over vulcan ? give me incentives.

the game you develope on DX12 only work on windows( install base 15-20%), the one you develope on vulcan, work on windows(100% install base),mac, and linux
so far MS didnt announce any plans for VR on it's console, so even the little incentive to go with DX12 to port isn't there, and the console sold so badly it isn't even worth it, unless microsoft actualy pays you, so if they are going to do that if they ever decide to add VR to xbox, they can pay for full port to DX12.
am not even getting to the part where valve would encourage devs on their platform to go vulcan 1st

Thing is, *I* don't need to give you an answer on this... Looking at the main VR games that have been announced, they have announced DX support, I've not seen any of them announce Vulkan support (which as I said in my first reply to you I am quite happy to have that shown to be wrong)

Lots of people on here keep saying both DX12 and Vulkan were born from Mantle, if that is the case then surely porting between the two should be fairly trivial anyway, compared with porting between OpenGL and DX11.

AlamoX · 30 Dec 2015 at 21:21

andybird123 said:
Thing is, *I* don't need to give you an answer on this... Looking at the main VR games that have been announced, they have announced DX support, I've not seen any of them announce Vulkan support (which as I said in my first reply to you I am quite happy to have that shown to be wrong)

Lots of people on here keep saying both DX12 and Vulkan were born from Mantle, if that is the case then surely porting between the two should be fairly trivial anyway, compared with porting between OpenGL and DX11.

ofc the first games are DX11(not DX12 mostly), because vulcan isn't out yet, but once it's out things might change, mantle was integrated into vulcan, thats why i am assuming it could be easier to port, but we still need to wait and see when vulcan is out about this particular point.

and you do have to answer :d , because i gave you fairly objective arguments on why vulcan seem to be the best choice and cheapest one for VR developement, and you disagreed with me without showing me anything why DX12 would be more appealing to devs, you can't disagree just for the sake of it, you must show me why.

andybird123 · 30 Dec 2015 at 21:35

AlamoX said:
ofc the first games are DX11(not DX12 mostly), because vulcan isn't out yet, but once it's out things might change, mantle was integrated into vulcan, thats why i am assuming it could be easier to port, but we still need to wait and see when vulcan is out about this particular point.

and you do have to answer :d , because i gave you fairly objective arguments on why vulcan seem to be the best choice and cheapest one for VR developement, and you disagreed with me without showing me anything why DX12 would be more appealing to devs, you can't disagree just for the sake of it, you must show me why.

I don't have to show you why, when devs themselves have given that answer in supporting DX12 (star citizen, bullet train and a couple of others I've read of but cant think of off the top of my head)

I don't claim to be a game developer, so it would be pointless for me to try to talk on their behalf, however much you might want to try.

Gregster · 30 Dec 2015 at 21:41

adolf hamster said:
I would have thought, given it already relies on optics to work, that adjustability for eyes might be better?

Saves the uncomfortableness of wearing glasses with it.

The DK2 has adjustable sides so the main google part can go further in or out and this works very well for glasses or not. My Mrs isn't a gamer but she said the vision was very good.

tommybhoy · 31 Dec 2015 at 01:29

Here's some cream from Nvidia:

To handle VR graphics, gaming PCs have to be 7 times more powerful

http://venturebeat.com/2015/12/30/to-handle-vr-graphics-gaming-pcs-have-to-be-7-times-more-powerful/

Be careful, there's pro Nvidia overload in there!

Near wet myself with some other bits.

andybird123 said:
Yeah it would be great if it happened, if you check back through my post history I had high hopes for steamOS, just looking at what is on steam/linux now and what is announced - remember I replied to someone saying that DX would be killed off by Vulkan, it is something to hope for, but its not something that can be put across as fact at this point

I'm still hoping Steam OS takes off, MS imo has done yet another Windows launch BS 'PC-We the Gamers push', Phil Spencer was talking about XB1 gaming as the main priority just last week.

Plenty devs got an eye on more than one Api.

And then you catch glimpses of:

While all of this is happening, Valve is working on an open-source Vulkan driver for Intel on Linux. This API will be released adjacent to OpenGL, and is built for high-performance graphics and compute. (Note that OpenCL is more sophisticated than Vulkan "1.0" will be on the compute side of things.) As nice as it would be to get high-end OpenGL support, especially for developers who want a more simplified structure to communicate to GPUs with, Vulkan will probably be the API that matters most for high-end video games. But again, that only applies to games that are developed for it.

http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Tessellation-Support-Expands-Intels-Open-Linux-Driver

Sounds an awful lot like Mantle(but don't know really if that's good or bad in the sense of it was only a select amount of titles)-as for me it was fantastic.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Vulkan is Mantle or DX is crap/going anywhere/wanting it to die, but it definitely needs competition, but bring on the DX12 just the same.

FoxEye · 31 Dec 2015 at 01:55

tommybhoy said:
I'm still hoping Steam OS takes off, MS imo has done yet another Windows launch BS 'PC-We the Gamers push', Phil Spencer was talking about XB1 gaming as the main priority just last week.

I'm hoping that SteamOS takes off, but only because it will be good for Linux gaming.

I have no love for Valve or Steam, and they are in many ways every bit as bad as the worst MS or Google have done in their past.

Gaben is just as arrogant and consumer-unfriendly, the only difference is he wants you to use his system, not Windows.

People should not see Valve/Steam as some kind of saviour from MS. Both have done good things, and both have done terrible things. A boost to Linux gaming is welcome, however, as a monopoly is never a good thing.

AlamoX · 31 Dec 2015 at 02:12

FoxEye said:
I'm hoping that SteamOS takes off, but only because it will be good for Linux gaming.

I have no love for Valve or Steam, and they are in many ways every bit as bad as the worst MS or Google have done in their past.

Gaben is just as arrogant and consumer-unfriendly, the only difference is he wants you to use his system, not Windows.

People should not see Valve/Steam as some kind of saviour from MS. Both have done good things, and both have done terrible things. A boost to Linux gaming is welcome, however, as a monopoly is never a good thing.

ok now im a valve fan boy lol... or whatever idea my previous posts seem have mistakenly conveyed, i know very well that steamOS, isn't out of the goodness of valve's heart, but a direct answer from valve to windows store, they are just scared of losing market share or have their customers taken away by microsoft.
nevertheless it is still better than microsoft monopoly over OS/API, especialy when they dont give a crap about them, and i see myself and others benefiting immensely from an alternative OS/API with a big enough market share to really matters, and it just happens that things in the future seem to be playing out just well for valve if they know how to take advantage of it, thats what my posts were about...

D.P. · 31 Dec 2015 at 03:04

AlamoX said:
yes there is many variables, how good steamOS will be, how well VR will be adopted by consumers, how hard microsoft is gonna push VR on xbox(lol since there is 0 word about it so far, they went with hololens, that later broke and the developing studio closed).
but in the end as a developper if you have DX12 and vulcan with teh same exact features (which so far no announcement made for any exclusive feature that gives him an edge over the other)
why would you use DX12 over vulcan ? give me incentives.

the game you develope on DX12 only work on windows( install base 15-20%), the one you develope on vulcan, work on windows(100% install base),mac, and linux
so far MS didnt announce any plans for VR on it's console, so even the little incentive to go with DX12 to port isn't there, and the console sold so badly it isn't even worth it, unless microsoft actualy pays you, so if they are going to do that if they ever decide to add VR to xbox, they can pay for full port to DX12.
am not even getting to the part where valve would encourage devs on their platform to go vulcan 1st
i wont lie to you, i do not like microsoft monopoly on OS, i would really like to see an alternative, especialy if it's a gaming one, microsoft keeps shooting itself in the foot over and over, they fragment their own install base by being too greedy, how come kronos with no where near the resources microsoft have, manage to make an API across all platform and across all windows iterations ( at least the major ones ), while microsoft can't even make an api across of it's own windows iterations, even with DX12 they made the most important and anticipated features windows 10 exclusive, so yes i surely HOPE steamOS gets some market share, and vulcan to be the main API from now on, possible that it wont happen, but if it does it would be swell.

Replace Vulcan with Opengl and DX12 with DX <12 and you can repeat your argument.in fact, Opengl has often had more up to date features than DX.

AlamoX · 31 Dec 2015 at 04:20

D.P. said:
Replace Vulcan with Opengl and DX12 with DX <12 and you can repeat your argument.in fact, Opengl has often had more up to date features than DX.

spain always voted for one of the 2 parties left or right, yet this year they changed, and the same applies here, given the right circumstances.
at the beginning ppl stuck to DX by default, lack of alternative OS, lack of performance, and especialy the delusion that microsoft gave a crap about PC gaming, now it's not the case anymore (if steamOS takes off) & ( no more delusions)
and i strongly believe that microsoft will do again what they did before with DX, they will just leave it untill they are forced to update it, because all the talk that microsoft had about their commitement to PC Gaming, went out of the window at the same time Windows store failed with windows 8.
i am pretty sure they wont even be pushing games into pc let alone API updates, since windows store failed they switched to microsoft app store, a unified platform blablabla, and i bet their focus will go to xbox and mobile, and just enough for the desktop to keep ppl from lashing out, anyway we got off-topic long enough.