30/11 Strikes.

Richie said:
Well as long as we are being blunt - it appears some people are just not reading what some people are posting and spouting BS themselves.

Not all of the public schemes are struggling with "money in the pot". Some have plenty. Yes, granted, some of this comes from taxation (I do understand where the organisation gets the money for employer contribution) but to attack ALL public sector pensions is frankly just ridiculous.
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I'm not attacking anything.
Richie said:
The schemes should be allowed to manage themselves IF they are self sufficient given their current structure. If/when the point comes where this is not the case then they should alter themselves and, if this does not happen, THEN get the government in to remedy the situation.

Private sector pensions were all happy to ride the crest of the wave when investments were good yet, as soon as they fall, they look to see who else they can pull down with them?
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How is the private sector pulling anyone down with them, is this not public sector employers (the government) reforming because they need to? Where does the private sector have any say in this? Private sector workers don't have the 'luxury' of going on strike over pensions.
Richie said:
Personally, if pension reform is needed then fine but this change should affect new joiners to the scheme and not move the goalposts for someone that has been in the scheme a long time. It hurts even more when some people have joined schemes which have just been through reform (NHS/Police for example) around 5 years ago and now they want to erode the conditions even more! Was it crazy for these people to think that the scheme they were joining was set for at least 25-30 years?
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This is exactly what needs to be done. It is grossly unfair to those who have made a lifetimes worth of work's contributions to have the rug pulled from under them.
Richie said:
It's the whole "Public v Private" argument. no one will ever win the argument as no one is willing to give any quarter. Even more so when some people take it as a personal attack :rolleyes:
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It seems only you are the one who has taken anything as a personal attack.
 
David Cameron have to go! Nick Clegg have to go! Both of them ashamed of themselves and can go to hell.

Our government went from bad to even worse now. Not looking forward to more cuts on Tuesday Autumn Budget.
 
Richie said:
Yes, I know that but this thread is talking about the upcoming strikes which is largely based on pensions hence why I am keeping a narrow scope on things.

Thanks for cutting my entire post down to 2 lines that you can try and pull apart though...
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That was my point, do you really think it is based out of jealousy, do you think I'm jeleuse of pensions and want them cut, when I'm sat on a final salary pension?
 
eddiemcgarrigle said:
Yet another report out admitting that my pension fund pays for itself.

My, won't that disappoint those who think that all public service pensions are nothing but a burden on the poor corporate worker and his tax contributions?
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It won't disappoint them they'll ignore it in the same way all the left-leaning people ignore the value the rich and corporate world add to this country.

Part of me wonders why people don't just take a step back and think maybe just maybe it's in someone's interests to have everyone at each others throats in a big rush to the bottom so they can push through whatever legislation they want.
 
Dabbles said:
Without actually investing public sector pension contributions into a fund like the stock market (a la private sector pensions) they will never be self sufficient. The problem with this is the government want/need to spend the money now to prevent more strikes.

Besides, you wouldn't like it if the market went down and your pension value decreased and you couldn't whine about it to anyone...
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More rubbish I'm afraid, the reason that private sector pensions have to invest in a fund is because investors do not have the confidence that their employer will still be around in their retirement - we actually used to have unfunded private sector pension schemes and people lost everything. Public sector employers on the other hand will always exist in one form or another (it would take a very extreme event for them not to), and therefore don't have that constraint.

No offence, but you don't seem to know a lot about this subject. By the way, funded pension schemes actually cost a lot more to the employer than unfunded pension schemes.
 
Dabbles said:
I'm not attacking anything.
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Apologies, I was referring to the government attacking the pensions, not you personally.



How is the private sector pulling anyone down with them, is this not public sector employers (the government) reforming because they need to? Where does the private sector have any say in this? Private sector workers don't have the 'luxury' of going on strike over pensions.
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Perhaps I didnt explain myself well - I meant that a lot of the people paying a private pension are basing a lot of their opinion of the current public pension issues whilst being blinded by the fact their own pension has lately taken a shoeing... Hardly being objective.



This is exactly what needs to be done. It is grossly unfair to those who have made a lifetimes worth of work's contributions to have the rug pulled from under them.
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Agreed.
 
eddiemcgarrigle said:
Yet another report out admitting that my pension fund pays for itself.

My, won't that disappoint those who think that all public service pensions are nothing but a burden on the poor corporate worker and his tax contributions?
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We've known this was the case with the FPS all along but mate, it's pointless trying to explain it people. Most are either blinkered and brainwashed by the government's spin or are too dumb and stupid to comprehend it. :rolleyes:
 
Draeger said:
We've known this was the case with the FPS all along but mate, it's pointless trying to explain it people. Most are either blinkered and brainwashed by the government's spin or are too dumb and stupid to comprehend it. :rolleyes:
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And how about the ones not funding themselfs and how about future forecast.
 
Glaucus said:
And how about the ones not funding themselfs and how about future forecast.
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This is what frustrates me sometimes on here. If I can go to the bother of taking time to read what people are posting then why can some people not? It's almost like they are more in a hurry to post something than read what has went before...


Richie said:
The schemes should be allowed to manage themselves IF they are self sufficient given their current structure. If/when the point comes where this is not the case then they should alter themselves and, if this does not happen, THEN get the government in to remedy the situation.
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Glaucus said:
Your argument was its just private sector looking to pull down public sector out of some jealousy. Despite it being a government initiative and has nothing to do with private sector.
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Do you not see a massive amount of jealousy on this issue? I certainly do. That combined with the uninformed lot who think they are unsustainable (remember, not affordable as thats a political decision) give legitimacy for the government to make these unnecessary changes.
 
Glaucus said:
Your argument was its just private sector looking to pull down public sector out of some jealousy. Despite it being a government initiative and has nothing to do with private sector.
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Please note I was asking a question, not making a statement -

Richie said:
Private sector pensions were all happy to ride the crest of the wave when investments were good yet, as soon as they fall, they look to see who else they can pull down with them?
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Floogie said:
Do you not see a massive amount of jealousy on this issue? I certainly do. That combined with the uninformed lot who think they are unsustainable (remember, not affordable as thats a political decision) give legitimacy for the government to make these unnecessary changes.
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No I don't.
I still have seen any future forecasts to show that your scheme is unsustainable, una foldable or what ever you want to call it. Not that I see a difference in the names.
Either it's affordable now and over long term future predictions based on company and employee contributions, or it isn't and is likely to require extra funding.

If it is affordable over a long term prediction then fine, you should keep it. But that's only really going to be the situation if the pensions are flexible.

Richie said:
Please note I was asking a question, not making a statement -
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My bad
 
Glaucus said:
If it is affordable over a long term prediction then fine, you should keep it. But that's only really going to be the situation if the pensions are flexible.
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Affordable = subjective.

Anything is affordable from a State perspective - given the political will.
 
Glaucus said:
No I don't.
I still have seen any future forecasts to show that your scheme is unsustainable, una foldable or what ever you want to call it. Not that I see a difference in the names.
Either it's affordable now and over long term future predictions based on company and employee contributions, or it isn't and is likely to require extra funding.

If it is affordable over a long term prediction then fine, you should keep it.
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Strange, but I find it a very common argument that because private sector pensions have been hobbled then its acceptable that public sector pension provision likewise decreases.

The fan chart I previously posted a few pages ago showed the costs of public sector pensions decreasing as a percentage of GDP over time. This, therefore, makes it sustainable as it can maintain itself over time and continues to be revalued on agreed timescales to ensure this is the case.

Affordability is the crux of the issue as it depends if you think providing decent pensions is beneficial or not to the wider economy. Thats a perfectly valid opinion to hold on its own, but I urge people to understand the consequences of further reducing public sector pension provision. Sadly, a lot of people don't give that a lot of thought...
 
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