30/11 Strikes.

[Dolph]

The trouble with this is that for 'essential' services - the ones we take for granted - companies will try to provide the bare minimum for the least overheads. When they decide the profit margin isn't good enough, they'll most probably walk away - leaving the things you take for granted unattended until (at some point) another company comes in, and then........ (rinse and repeat).

There is no Dolph-esque utopia, and the sooner you realise this the better.

People get the services they deserve, if they fail to use the choices they have, then chances are they will get stuck with sub standard service.

it's still a better situation than now when everyone is stuck with sub-standard service...

 

[Deleted member 66701]

I'm going to work tom, and not striking. I work for a LPA

If the Unions win a concession on the pensions issue will you be writing to Georgie Boy offering to make a sacrifice to your pension on the governments original terms?

You know, for the good of the country and all that?

 

[Dolph]

Maybe if the private sector had gotten organised then maybe they might have been able to save thier pensions.

But no, they laid back and took it like they always do like the good corporate serfs they are.

And for what it's worth the Unions DID raise their objection at the time, but as the private sector as a whole refuses any form of Unionisation there wasn't an awful lot they could do about it.

You seem to forget that the private sector has to earn, rather than take money, which means the reality is rather different compared to the public sector.

Or have you forgotten how many industries in the UK have been killed by excessive cost demands?

 

[Dolph]

If the Unions win a concession on the pensions issue will you be writing to Georgie Boy offering to make a sacrifice to your pension on the governments original terms?

You know, for the good of the country and all that?

I'm sure he'd agree if the unions agree to cover all the costs of the strikes if they don't...

 

[uk_unbeliever]

Keep beating the strawman rather than actually addressing the points made.

which point do you want me to address? I wasn't misrepresenting your position, I think I understand your position. I was arguing against the libertarian extreme. This isn't a philosphy PHD it's a computer geek forum, it's hard not to focus on relatively extreme positions when there's loads of mini-conversations going on in each thread.

 

[deSade]

People get the services they deserve, if they fail to use the choices they have, then chances are they will get stuck with sub standard service.

Yet again, this sounds more like 'People get the services they can afford' - not what they 'deserve'.

 

[Dolph]

I'd rather the local council (or appropriate body) did that for me. They could charge me something called "Council Tax" that would pay for it.

There's nothing to stop you doing that in my system, only to stop you forcing me to have to do it.

 

[Dolph]

Yet again, this sounds more like 'People get the services they can afford' - not what they 'deserve'.

Only if you're not paying attention, we are talking about a system where the state ensures access to the service, normally by a tax take that is then passed back to the individual to spend, as opposed to now where the money is taken and spent without any choice or control.

 

[Dolph]

which point do you want me to address? I wasn't misrepresenting your position, I think I understand your position. I was arguing against the libertarian extreme. This isn't a philosphy PHD it's a computer geek forum, it's hard not to focus on relatively extreme positions when there's loads of mini-conversations going on in each thread.

But it isn't being discussed in this thread. Focusing on an extreme position that has been advocated by no-one, rather than addressing the positions raised, doesn't really help advance the debate at all...

 

[Biohazard]

Bang on. The admin overheads of such a venture would likely wipe out any efficiency savings. I've got enough going on with other household utilities. Comparison shopping for street cleaning and removal is one step too far.

Where I live collaborative working between the local authorities is increasing as a result of being forced at gunpoint to find cost savings. Interestingly a lot of work is being taken back in-house as when a couple of councils bunch together it works out cheaper than the big companies that take on outsourcing deals. I'm sure similar things will apply in the other big cities like London.

The SNP have a great policy here. Blackmail councils essentially by reducing their funding by x and releasing it if they agree to freezing rate increases essentially - they all have every year. I don't have much sympathy partly because the Labour opposition in Council level, where they dominated and still do to a large extent, would continue to love their fiscal remit to increase until the Sun burnt out, secondly rate increases here before the freeze since 2007 during Labour control were above inflation and often for poor return in both services and infrastructure in return, and thirdly people hate councils the unfair council tax and many families are pushed under hard times. It has been a success with other assistance from Government mainly capital investment and overlapping schemes and initiatives, importantly councils have to do more for less like everyone else.

I have little to endear me to councils who have let their areas decline while they ramped up the charges and lived like Lords or drug barons in their little empires. It is a practice that needs to end.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Only if you're not paying attention, we are talking about a system where the state ensures access to the service, normally by a tax take that is then passed back to the individual to spend, as opposed to now where the money is taken and spent without any choice or control.

Why would your average citizen want choice and control over who empties the bins? Most people have more important things to worry about than which supplier to use for bin collection and who they think should maintain the street lighting. They'd rather than council did that for them.

Look at the absolute mess that choice and control has brought to the energy markets. Only the very intelligent can select the correct energy tariff without any faffing around. Most people would probably far rather return to the days when the 'electric board' sent them a bill.

 

[deSade]

Only if you're not paying attention, we are talking about a system where the state ensures access to the service, normally by a tax take that is then passed back to the individual to spend, as opposed to now where the money is taken and spent without any choice or control.

So are you advocating that the more tax you pay - the more you get back to choose your service? Or do you get the same back as everyone?

 

[uk_unbeliever]

Only if you're not paying attention, we are talking about a system where the state ensures access to the service, normally by a tax take that is then passed back to the individual to spend, as opposed to now where the money is taken and spent without any choice or control.

Like a kind of personal budget?

What method would dictate who got what amount of personal budget and roughly how would the level of total tax take be determined?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Like a kind of personal budget?

What method would dictate who got what amount of personal budget and roughly how would the level of total tax take be determined?

And what happens to those incapable of managing their own budget let alone a personal budget allocated to them for essential services by the government?

 

[MagicBoy]

There's nothing to stop you doing that in my system, only to stop you forcing me to have to do it.

A lovely utopian vision but would never work in practise.

 

[MagicBoy]

And what happens to those incapable of managing their own budget let alone a personal budget allocated to them for essential services by the government?

Indeed. Who's going to fund the extra admin days off work so I can deal with the overhead of appointing my suppliers and checking on their performance?

 

[Dolph]

Why would your average citizen want choice and control over who empties the bins? Most people have more important things to worry about than which supplier to use for bin collection and who they think should maintain the street lighting. They'd rather than council did that for them.

Look at the absolute mess that choice and control has brought to the energy markets. Only the very intelligent can select the correct energy tariff without any faffing around. Most people would probably far rather return to the days when the 'electric board' sent them a bill.

Should the failure of the average person be a reason to prevent any choice?

So are you advocating that the more tax you pay - the more you get back to choose your service? Or do you get the same back as everyone?

No, I'd advocate a % income based approach, with clear division between each part of the payment, and everyone gets the same right to access the service guarantee.

Like a kind of personal budget?

What method would dictate who got what amount of personal budget and roughly how would the level of total tax take be determined?

More like a voucher system than a personal budget.

 

[[TW]Fox]

A lovely utopian vision but would never work in practise.

And this is the flaw with almost all of his opinions and suggestions. On paper, on the planet perfect, they are all such a good idea...

 

[[TW]Fox]

Should the failure of the average person be a reason to prevent any choice?

Yes, because like it or not in this country of almost 70 million people, quite a large proportion of them are the average person and a scary proportion are the below average. They would be quite capable of ending up with a pile of stinking rubbish in the garden because they simply couldn't be arsed to tear themselves away from I'm a Celeb long enough to allocate some of the personal budget towards waste collection.

 

[Dolph]

And what happens to those incapable of managing their own budget let alone a personal budget allocated to them for essential services by the government?

Default provision? It would solve both that problem and the laziness problem of those who can't be bothered.