360 + 16 month warranty - sog act - fun about to start

[VIRII]

Yeah, he would have to prove that whatever has caused his 3 rings was related to the oft-publicised "solder issue", or some other known technical defect and since there isn't even an official recall for that I'm not sure how well that will go either.

*shrug*

Not really, he simply has to convince the judge that the probability is that the product is faulty. Given the high returns rate that might be sufficient.
I'd be going for the "loss of confidence in the design" and refund less value given to date. Get £240 or so refund and use it towards the purchase of ew one with bundled games.

 

[Durzel]

I'm sorry, where have I posted "as if I am a lawyer"? Have I said "I am a lawyer and in my legal opinion"? Nope. So if simply offering my opinion is "posting as a lawyer" then suerly you are "posting as a lawyer" too by offering your opinion.

Have you ever used the SOGA for anything? Have you ever taken a company to court? Have you ever dealt with Trading Standards or Consumer Direct on these issues? What experience of the SOGA have you ever had?

You said "If it goes to court the things that the Judge will consider are primarily these" - which either means you have gone to Court over SOGA, you're a lawyer who has been involved in SOGA cases or you are speculating as to what happens in Court. So which is it?

And yes, I've used the SOGA a couple of times though it hasn't got as far as Court (companies involved resolved the dispute with an appropriate gratuity). I've taken companies to Court over other non-SOGA matters, as well as been involved in Court for matters relating to the company I work for. Is that ok with you?

 

[Phil99]

This is where I think that the highly publicised high 360 failure rate will be helpful to him, if it goes to court he must gather lots of evidence of consumer complaints about the product. Indeed the retailer could even be forced to decalre how many units it had exchanged or sent off for repair against the number it has sold.

If the retailer has to declare how many returns they've had I think he'll almost certainly win. When I took my 360 back to the shop I bought it from after it failed they said that they'd had quite a lot of returns.

 

[Richdog]

If this is the law why are companys allowed to tell people
a no go with stuff out of warranty i dont understand how they are able to ignore the law?

Because the simple truth is that 99% of consumers have no understanding of their rights, and even if they did are often too lazy to do anything about it. Thus high-street and online stores get away with it.

 

[VIRII]

You said "If it goes to court the things that the Judge will consider are primarily these" - which either means you have gone to Court over SOGA, you're a lawyer who has been involved in SOGA cases or you are speculating as to what happens in Court. So which is it?

And yes, I've used the SOGA a couple of times though it hasn't got as far as Court (companies involved resolved the dispute with an appropriate gratuity). I've taken companies to Court over other non-SOGA matters, as well as been involved in Court for matters relating to the company I work for. Is that ok with you?

If you have any basic knowledge of the SOGA how can you come out with such malinformed statements as "you've had the product for a year" and "the SOGA is primarily for sorting out problems at point fo sale or very soon after"?
That is utter cobblers.

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html

 

[Durzel]

If you have any basic knowledge of the SOGA how can you come out with such malinformed statements as "you've had the product for a year" and "the SOGA is primarily for sorting out problems at point fo sale or very soon after"?
That is utter cobblers.

If consumers discover that products do not meet these requirements they can reject them and ask for their money back providing they do so quickly. Alternatively, they can request a repair or replacement or claim compensation.

The cases where I've thrown around SoG have been where the retailer didn't offered any kind of warranty for what I'd bought with them, but I wasn't happy with the product condition, etc. I haven't gone back to a retailer long after my manufacturers warranty has expired and started saying "omg I don't need a warranty I've got SoG to protect me!"

 

[VIRII]

The cases where I've thrown around SoG have been where the retailer didn't offered any kind of warranty for what I'd bought with them, but I wasn't happy with the product condition, etc. I haven't gone back to a retailer long after my manufacturers warranty has expired and started saying "omg I don't need a warranty I've got SoG to protect me!"

You're clearly clueless as to your STATUTORY RIGHTS then.
Read the link above and learn something new.
I'll paste the "key facts" for you. I wonder if the DTI lawyers will be good enough for you..... if you've only ever accepted 12 months as your warranty period then ROFL.
Key Facts:

• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.

• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

• For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.

• If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit

• In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).

• If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)

• After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.

 

[Durzel]

You're clearly clueless as to your STATUTORY RIGHTS then.
Read the link above and learn something new.

Less of the arrogance please.

So from the looks of that link the case rests on proving an "inherent fault" ? Does the OP actually know what caused the X360 to stop working? (difficult I guess when its a sealed unit)

 

[VIRII]

Less of the arrogance please.

So from the looks of that link the case rests on proving an "inherent fault" ? Does the OP actually know what caused the X360 to stop working? (difficult I guess when its a sealed unit)

The responses that I give to you will be directly inline with the tone of your responses to me...."omg I don't need a warranty I've got SoG to protect me!"

Yes as has been stated NUMEROUS times the onus after 6 months is upon the consumer to prove the fault. Hence "I think that the Judge........" given the high failure rate.

Anyway back to the *predictions*. I predict that the retailer will pull out at the last minute and offer a replacement unit.
If they don't then I think the judge will rule in favour of a partial refund circa £240.
If the OP is brave he can argue that as the methods of getting the 360 living again typically involve heating the main PCB with a heatgun (reflows the solder) that the fault is inherent as the solder changes molecular structure over time from heating up and cooling down hence whilst the affect of the fault doesn't occur immediately it does occur over time.
The leadfree solder requirements (wiaved for certain military and medical purposes where reliability is critical) has caused no end of problems for people.

This results in lots of HALT and HASS (accelerated life testing/ stress screening) of pretty much every circuit board currently being produced. Good work for those of us that test products for durability, reliability and safety for a living
Shall we see who is right?

 

[fini]

I'm a law student and have done a six month module on the Sale of Goods Act - so I feel I know it relatively well.

What VIRII is posting is correct. The only thing that I would disagree with at all is the ease with which he is likely to prove that the fault was inherent at the time of purchase. There are plenty of ways the console could have been abused to course it to stop working. My suggestion would be to, perhaps, get a trained electrician or someone trained that knows what they're doing to crack it open. At that point they'll hopefully notice the solder's screwed, write that in a report, and your case is suddenly a lot easier to prove. At the moment there's just a box that isn't working for whatever reason.

fini

 

[NokkonWud]

Are they really entitled to replace an out-of-warranty item??

You can definitely fight it regardless, the Xbox360 wasn't fit for its purpose. It was made to last for longer than 16 months and therefore wasn't fit for purpose which is to last for 5 years (I believe that's what is covered in the T&C of Trading Standards).

 

[VIRII]

I'm a law student and have done a six month module on the Sale of Goods Act - so I feel I know it relatively well.

What VIRII is posting is correct. The only thing that I would disagree with at all is the ease with which he is likely to prove that the fault was inherent at the time of purchase. There are plenty of ways the console could have been abused to course it to stop working. My suggestion would be to, perhaps, get a trained electrician or someone trained that knows what they're doing to crack it open. At that point they'll hopefully notice the solder's screwed, write that in a report, and your case is suddenly a lot easier to prove.

fini

Thanks My confidence in the proof of the weaknesses of lead free solder comes from my experiences as a test house engineer. Fortunately as all the products my company make are military we don't get these headaches ourselves, but I do a lot of test work for "normal" products too.

You could (and I would) open a line of communication with one of the places that repair these for £50 a go stating that yours is not working (detail the fault), ask for a repair quotation and an indication as to what the repair will involve in detail, what guarantee it will have once repaired and what the cost will be.
Assuming they say "we open it up, reflow the solder with a heat gun (as per the many videos etc on the web) and we have a 99% success rate" then I think the OP has the type of evidence required.
Actually opening his case up will invalidate any warranty and mean he has no chance of winning in court as the fault could have been caused by him.

Incidentally you won't see a broken track or similar on the solder, that is not quite how the problem manifests itself.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Going on what VIRII is saying I think you will do well mate !

I would take along any/all findings and reports of the faulty nature of the 360 to support your claim that it is indeed a inherent fault (not just with yours, but many 360s)!

Namely I suggest you try and dig up the watchdog article about the Xbox360 and it's poor life expectancy, and hopefully it will help you win

 

[gjrc]

surely a judge deciding that the 360 is inherintly faulty would have huge ramifications for MS all over europe??

 

[Mr Men]

I guess the shop will back down as soon as it comes clear your not willing to drop it

 

[PiKe]

surely a judge deciding that the 360 is inherintly faulty would have huge ramifications for MS all over europe??

You'll probably find that the OP isn't the first person to do this, just there will be a non-disclosure placed on the people who have tried this when the case is settled.

 

[TALON1973]

well as i briefly mentioned in my OP , i've already spoken to trading standards and been told i'd win hands down. they couldn't give me individual cases but did hint they were more than aware of the problem / had others phone in.

they couldn't get involved legally tho until i gave the retailer 14 days notice. they have until tmoz to give me a reply ( that makes it 16 days including the BH ) . after that TS take the raines

 

[Andy298]

well as i briefly mentioned in my OP , i've already spoken to trading standards and been told i'd win hands down. they couldn't give me individual cases but did hint they were more than aware of the problem / had others phone in.

they couldn't get involved legally tho until i gave the retailer 14 days notice. they have until tmoz to give me a reply ( that makes it 16 days including the BH ) . after that TS take the raines

Keep us posted anyway. I want to see how this turns out

 

[Andy298]

I'm not a lawyer no, but I'm not the one posting as if I am.

I'll be keen to see how this guy gets on, but my uninformed opinion is that he'll get nowhere.

Jeez, what with all the negativity!?

It's good that people like VIRII help out with this as the majority of folk haven't a clue about their consumer rights. They just lie down and take the crap feed to them from the retailer!

 

[Wyrdo]

Less of the arrogance please.

hah

Good luck to you OP, will be keeping an eye on this one.