6.1 HTPC to AV Receiver - How ?

jellybeard999 · 21 Feb 2007 at 20:32

How is best to connect a HTPC to AV Receiver ?

My only option atm is to use 4x 3.5mm to RCA , since the onboard has only minijacks... got some cheapies lying around that im going to use...

I have had a quick browse around, and the only other option seems to be optical (i think thats the connection), since i haven't seen a soundcard with a different output... and i've heard that that isnt a great connection for multichannel audio.

How have you connected yours ?

Looking to see what im aiming for as i plan to upgrade this connection in the near future (soundcard + cables?)

wassap · 21 Feb 2007 at 21:05

I use spdif (co-ax digital) but i have used optical before.What outputs have you got? and what can your amp take?

Jez · 21 Feb 2007 at 21:10

Nothing wrong with optical :confused:

jellybeard999 · 21 Feb 2007 at 21:13

wohoo said:
I use spdif (co-ax digital) but i have used optical before.What outputs have you got? and what can your amp take?

S/P-DIF, optical, Analogue, Composite & S-Video, Component Inputs

what soundcard ? or onboard s/pdif ? is spdif a 1 cable solution for all channels ?

Jez said:
Nothing wrong with optical

im struggling to find the quote now, but squiffy came up with a reason :confused:

squiffy · 21 Feb 2007 at 21:58

Nothing wrong with using digital output from PC into a av amp, unless you're gaming in which case only stereo will work (not 4.1 EAX) so for games switch over to analogue 5.1 input.

Digital audio carries all channels, PCM and DD & DTS, and being that av amp has better DAC, and that a av amp will actually convert analogue inputs to digital prior to processing and bass management it makes sense to send digital audio to the amp.

Generally I use coaxial because of the lower cost of the cables, more rugged design. Coaxial has lower jitter, for DD/DTS it won't make any difference but for CD's (PCM) it might do (in theory)

jellybeard999 · 21 Feb 2007 at 23:37

ok then, something like an audigy 2 + reasonable optical cable fine for 6.1 movie + stereo music duty ?

as a side note, anyone any experience of the Acoustic Solutions bookshelf speakers for £20 from a high street catalogue shop ? Going to get something such as these for side speakers, to keep me going... i assume theyll be "ok" ... not expecting superb performance for £20, but they wont be absolutely dire will they ?

squiffy · 21 Feb 2007 at 23:45

My dad has a pair of those. They don't go down that deep, no bass at all. You will need a subwoofer. The sound quality isn't up to much.

I haven't tried them on my Audiolab 8000Q/SX/SX system.

He's got the matching Acoustic Solutions amp.

jellybeard999 · 21 Feb 2007 at 23:51

Wont the bass be routed to the front speakers though ? Which DO have a decent amount of bass

(Celestion Impact 10s)

I was assuming theyd be more than adequate for the time being, compared to the weedy speakers that normally get bundled with setups

i have the desired amount of bass when the fronts are coupled to my Arcam 7R, so im going subless for now

If something is encoded in stereo, itll only play through the front speakers too wont it ? wont try to upmix my music i hope

Just to be clear, i DONT want a lot of bass, since it gets silly later at night (live with parents) and renders my system unusable really, plus i dont have too much space to play with...

squiffy · 21 Feb 2007 at 23:59

ah right sorry I thought be used as mains. But yes should be ok, set crossover quite high for sides though. lol at the specs..

10Hz-20KHz Response

Lower frequency response than my £700 12" water tank sized sub!

As for stereo, just use stereo mode. What's your amp/av amp? It should have stereo mode.

84dB sensitivity is quite low though.

jellybeard999 · 22 Feb 2007 at 00:14

Got this for £74 from the auction site, though not the best, cant grumble at the price

and i think it will do fine as a first av reciever, until i can afford something better... was limited for choice if i wanted component/hdmi though... hope i haven't dropped a bullock

Spec (not official site though)

Review

Am tempted to keep my Alpha 7R and run it as pass through (amp supports it apparantly), but im not sure if id realise much benefit ? What do you think ?

According to the review, it has problems with subs, so thats another reason to avoid them

I always thought a decent surround system, with full range speakers all round would negate the need for a sub, and they were generally introduced in the lower range packs, to compensate for the cruddy satellite speakers... obviously a big sub will make explosions go with a deeper thud etc, but do they really add that much else ?

Im going to try to get to that highstreet hifi shop as theyre running some Eltax speakers for £20 which seem slightly better, and a couple of the eltax Symphony centres.. i assume its a centre speaker at the rear in a 6.1 setup ?

squiffy · 22 Feb 2007 at 00:20

Well I think Sherwood gear is pretty low quality, and I think you're mad going from Arcam to Sherwood.

Keep the Arcam and use it for left/right channels. Take Left & Right pre-outs from the Sherwood into a spare input on the Arcam. You will need to adjust the Arcam to a set position during system calibration. Use a strip of white sticky label so every time you use it in AV mode you align the volume control.

I always thought a decent surround system, with full range speakers all round would negate the need for a sub, and they were generally introduced in the lower range packs, to compensate for the cruddy satellite speakers... obviously a big sub will make explosions go with a deeper thud etc, but do they really add that much else ?

Using full-range speakers plus the subwoofer all round isn't a good idea, learn about bass nodes. People like M&K specialise in medium sized sats and subwoofers, usually around THX spec (80hz for all)

Full-range speakers cost thousands, and you need capable amplification to power them. A dedicated subwoofer can reproduce the bass frequencies that floorstanders cannot with ease, with a lower distortion level and at a higher output.

You don't need full-range speakers for sides and surrounds. 60hz-80hz F3 point will be fine.

A subwoofer does more than crash and bangs.

Eltax are cheap and nasty speakers too. I suggest looking elseware.

jellybeard999 · 22 Feb 2007 at 00:26

well we'll see

I bought it on the justification that if it was a total POS, id re-ebay it, and should lose too much

Bear in mind that our expectations might be slightly different here

In pass through, does the volume of both amps get lowered in effect ? or would i turn the volume down on the reciever and end up with the fronts at a higher volume ?

squiffy said:
Eltax are cheap and nasty speakers too. I suggest looking elseware.

LOL ... im expecting so

I think ill get the wires prepped, and the stands in place (got some atacamas in the attic) and get a decent centre for now (so thats the 2 fronts, and a centre) then wait for a good 2nd hand bargain for the sides and rear.

EDIT - i think my lack of knowledge is apparant here

I thought that full range speakers were tweeter + sub (like most)... vs say the speakers in a £40 creative labs set, which just have a tweeter

squiffy · 22 Feb 2007 at 00:38

In pass through, does the volume of both amps get lowered in effect ? or would i turn the volume down on the reciever and end up with the fronts at a higher volume ?

Once you calibrate the two amps up, you just switch to that input on the Arcam and set to a certain level. The master volume on the Sherwood is then the master volume.

Ideally though you want to use a integrated amp (where the Arcam is) with a amp that has a direct feed into the poweramp sections, so it bypasses the amps pre-amp. That way you don't have to adjust the "Arcam" volume, just flick the switch. Audiolab 8000S amplifier has this feature.

EDIT - i think my lack of knowledge is apparant here I thought that full range speakers were tweeter + sub (like most)... vs say the speakers in a £40 creative labs set, which just have a tweeter

Full range speakers are just that, speakers that are capable of 20hz-20khz. Typically you're looking at speakers 6' high, with a 12" subwoofer built into each cabinet. Bass, mid-bass and treble drivers. Even my old Kef floorstanders at £1000 weren't full range (36hz) Looking at something like the JM Lab Grand Utopia, those are full-range speakers.

Because the vast majority of speakers are incapable of such frequency response, you use a subwoofer and use the av amps crossover so that not too much bass gets sent to the 5.0 speakers. Typically you'll set everything to 80hz for all, but if you have floorstanders you can use 40hz or 60hz for L/R. THX and Dolby recommend 80hz for all due to amplifier/bass room nodes.

All of my speakers are capble of sub 80hz, but I have set them to 80hz for all. The crossover is not a cut-off, it's a curved drop-off - my mains are reproducing lower bass than a 80hz standmount would do (say a M&K satellite THX speaker)

Standmount speakers go down to about 50hz. Fine for music, and ok for smaller rooms. But for AV and in a larger room you will need a subwoofer.

jellybeard999 · 22 Feb 2007 at 00:43

Thanks for your time Squiffy

I know it may not be the best kit, but bear in mind i dont have thousands to blow, im sure it'll keep me amused for a while at least

I may be pleasantly surprised (i may not) ... but as you always say, surround is better for movies, and that is what im aiming for

Ideally though you want to use a integrated amp (where the Arcam is) with a amp that has a direct feed into the poweramp sections, so it bypasses the amps pre-amp. That way you don't have to adjust the "Arcam" volume, just flick the switch. Audiolab 8000S amplifier has this feature.

So are you saying a poweramp would be more suited, rather than the arcam for the fronts ? Or am i reading this wrong ?

squiffy · 22 Feb 2007 at 01:09

So are you saying a poweramp would be more suited, rather than the arcam for the fronts ? Or am i reading this wrong ?

Yes and no, what I am saying is if you still want high quality stereo, keep your stereo amp, and connect everything that's stereo (CD, tape, record) into the Arcam. When you listen to stereo the av amp can be switched off. So it works like a standard stereo system which you already know how to use.

From your AV amplifier pre-outs (variable low level RCA outputs) connect the left & right pre-outs into a spare input on your Arcam amp. So in AV mode switch input and set the volume to a certain pre-determined level. Reduce volume on both amps to minimum. Reset the Sherwoods channel levels. To work out this level output the test tone from the Sherwood, gradully increase master until it's audible on the centre, sides and surrounds. When it outputs left & right increase the Arcam level until the L/R match the other speakers. If the Arcam dial has to go really high to match, reduce the Arcam back down again to your normal position on the Arcam dial, and use the Sherwoods gain on the L/R channels and increase it. Hopefully you'll get a good match between the two. Also everytime you want to watch a 5.1 soundtrack you must remember to set the Arcam to that calibrated level. However in this setup the left & right channels are going through another pre-amp which isn't necassary or ideal. So ideally you want to bypass them. AYou can do this by using a integrated amplifier with direct input, ie 8000S. It has dedicated poweramp inputs (plug left & right pre-outs from AV amp to these) It's a normal stereo integrated amp (so CD goes into line level inputs) so it acts like your Arcam, but in a AV system it can act as a standard 2 channel poweramp too.

So once you switch the 8000S mode switch to pre-power the 8000S volume doesn't do a thing to the left/right volume, only the Sherwood controls master.

I used to have a Audiolab 8000S and this feature makes the system much easier to use, you don't need to adjust volume and remember to knock it back down (usually on standard amps it has to be set quite high, so nasty shock if you forget when switching back to stereo/CD mode) but because you don't need to adjust volume, only "mode" you will never get that shock that you will get on any other standard amp.

It depends on how you've set it up, and what is connected to what. You can have these three setups.

1)
Stereo integrated amplifier, CD plugged into <
AV amplifier, DVD plugged into <, Left & right pre-outs into ^
This is a nice system to have, you've got the HT system plus a good 2 channel system for music. No compromises in music.

2)
5 channel power amplifier
AV amplifier, DVD plugged into <, Pre-outs into ^
This is ideal if you find amplifiers in the av amp a bit weedy, so you can upgrade with external poweramps. Good idea if you buy a cheap av amp but a good 5 channel poweramp, and wish to change av amp frequently due to video switching/audio DSP modes ie DD + etc.

3)
5+ channels of power amplification.
AV pre-amp processor, 5x pre-outs into poweramp.
Best quality, but expensive.

In my HT- 7.1 system, I use five x 2 channel poweramps (total of 10 channels of amplification) Left, Right & Centre are bi-amped. Side/Surrounds are powered single channels.

jellybeard999 · 22 Feb 2007 at 01:17

Based on what you've said squiffy, im gonna do as i planned and sell the arcam, using solely the reciever, see how i get on... get myself some sides, front and rear... then if i find the reciever is a bit poor, i replace that first, if its ok, i will get myself a poweramp for music, then see about a new reciever

Selling the arcam now (maybe for a trade off in quality) does free up funds for my other speakers too

squiffy · 22 Feb 2007 at 01:25

I didn't say anything about selling the Arcam :confused:

. Keep it, and use it with your Sherwood.

I you do get a 2 channel poweramp for left & right, you still will have lousy stereo because the sherwood is your pre-amp. I only said you can use a poweramp with av amp if you find av amp poweramps poor. ie you could get a 3 channel poweramp and power the centre and sides. So the av amp is powering nothing, it's just acting as a processor (multi-channel soundtrack decoding)

jellybeard999 · 22 Feb 2007 at 01:33

i didnt say you did say sell it

I said i planned to lol ... i think i'll give it a whirl with that in the loop, and without, and base my decision on that... this reciever is only a stop gap, not the be all and end all