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A Closer Look At Mantle and EQAA In Civilization

Some good info...what I'm not 'getting' if you will, is why EQAA is now suddenly a big deal? It's been around in cats since early 2011 and the nvidia varient, CSAA has been about since late 2006. Also it's been forcible via drivers since their respective release dates. So just about any game can use it yet some are getting excited because it's enabled in game, a civ game at that?

Hi Pg Tips,

AMD has promised that developers would start exploring totally unique solutions to multi-GPU with Mantle. Civilization does that. Users will get an incredibly smooth, buttery experience if they have CrossFire. This is the main reason for the thread. To spread awareness about SFR and other unique features that Mantle and CIV offer to AMD customers. EQAA is one of them. The process may have been around for a while, but i believe this is the first time it's automatically applied in a game when enabling MSAA without any further requirement from the user. Pcper had this to say on EQAA
Improves anti-aliasing quality by doubling the coverage samples (vs. MSAA) at each AA level. This is automatically enabled for AMD users when AA is enabled in the game.
We’re doing cool things with image quality that give a better experience on AMD—and we’re still winning benchmarks!

Because having in game AA options is much easier for everyone and there are plenty of users who dont go it the CP or dont know what they are doing when they do, hence why games are getting more and more ingame AA options that have been available for years through the CP .

Also, this.
 
ahh so everyone can bench on the same settings, thats good.

why?
if you buy an amd card you want to know what Mantle does and can offer you.
I dont play using dx if Mantle is an option as that would be silly.

Some good info...what I'm not 'getting' if you will, is why EQAA is now suddenly a big deal? It's been around in cats since early 2011 and the nvidia varient, CSAA has been about since late 2006. Also it's been forcible via drivers since their respective release dates. So just about any game can use it yet some are getting excited because it's enabled in game, a civ game at that?

any game that adds better visual aspects and the rpg and such game fields who dont need a ton of fps then visual quality matters a lot more. your gaming goes slower, you wait for actions and you then see visual artifacts much easier than playing an fps game like BF4.

the thing here is SFR for the game as crossfire support is added differently rendering for the game from firaxis
 
Hi Pg Tips,

AMD has promised that developers would start exploring totally unique solutions to multi-GPU with Mantle. Civilization does that. Users will get an incredibly smooth, buttery experience if they have CrossFire. This is the main reason for the thread. To spread awareness about SFR and other unique features that Mantle and CIV offer to AMD customers. EQAA is one of them. The process may have been around for a while, but i believe this is the first time it's automatically applied in a game when enabling MSAA without any further requirement from the user. Pcper had this to say on EQAA

We’re doing cool things with image quality that give a better experience on AMD—and we’re still winning benchmarks!



Also, this.

Will it be smooth and buttery with vsync on, on a 60hz monitor, even when the frametimes solidly stradle the 16-20ms range?
 
Some good info...what I'm not 'getting' if you will, is why EQAA is now suddenly a big deal? It's been around in cats since early 2011 and the nvidia varient, CSAA has been about since late 2006. Also it's been forcible via drivers since their respective release dates. So just about any game can use it yet some are getting excited because it's enabled in game, a civ game at that?

Spot on. Good to see that EQAA is selectable in game but AMD users could do this for every game from CCC and I don't get why this is a big deal all of a sudden in a strategy game. I understand that AMD wants to big up their proprietary things like EQAA and Mantle but EQAA is a BIG thing now:confused:
 
Will it be smooth and buttery with vsync on, on a 60hz monitor, even when the frametimes solidly stradle the 16-20ms range?

I will be sure to let you know andy when i get my copy, I'll make sure i test that as i play with Vsync always. Basing my previous Mantle experiences on Battlefield 4, Hardline, Plants Vs Zombies, Star Swarm, Sniper Elite V3 and Thief I'd say absolutely. Mantle is smoother than everything else I've tried.
 
Spot on. Good to see that EQAA is selectable in game but AMD users could do this for every game from CCC and I don't get why this is a big deal all of a sudden in a strategy game. I understand that AMD wants to big up their proprietary things like EQAA and Mantle but EQAA is a BIG thing now:confused:

Couldn't do it from every game at all. ;) some games didn't let you over ride the AA or mantle games don't let you hook into the game. This the first time EQAA is used on a Mantle game that's why it's getting talked about from amd users.
Lol;)
 
A big fuss over nothing, won't even be noticeable over other forms of AA in this game. If it was some awesome effects like PhysX gives to borderlands I could see the hype but are people really getting excited over a form of AA lol
 
what would be interesting would to see crossfire added into SFR with fps games.
if the fps is lower wouldnt matter much (add more cards) since you gain the benefit of better framepacing solving the technical challenges to some extent. Unless the fps drops are in the 50´s
 
what would be interesting would to see crossfire added into SFR with fps games.
if the fps is lower wouldnt matter much (add more cards) since you gain the benefit of better framepacing solving the technical challenges to some extent. Unless the fps drops are in the 50´s

Or to put it another way, any time the frametime goes over 16.6ms
 
All that extra work to equates too a few FPS more, the developers would more then likely been better off using that time to do some more optimisation work and offered just as much performance, maybe even more performance.

And who cares about EQAA?? You can force it at driver level anyway, developers would been much better off implementing better/native support for TrSSAA.

That would have improved IQ much better then EQAA would, but again that can be forced at driver level too!
 
All that extra work to equates too a few FPS more, the developers would more then likely been better off using that time to do some more optimisation work and offered just as much performance, maybe even more performance.

And who cares about EQAA?? You can force it at driver level anyway, developers would been much better off implementing better/native support for TrSSAA.

That would have improved IQ much better then EQAA would, but again that can be forced at driver level too!

Why bother with ingame AA or AF at all or geforce experience, gaming evolved apps, everyone knows who to do it themselves right off the batt.
 
Why bother with ingame AA or AF at all or geforce experience, gaming evolved apps, everyone knows who to do it themselves right off the batt.

AF makes a MASSIVE difference that anyone can see, EQAA on the other hand? 99% of people wouldn't be able to see the difference between MSAA and MSAA+EQAA.

A lot of fuss kicked up about

1. Something that's old
2. Something people see
3. Something that 99% of people don't care about
4. Something that's still not better then Edge Detect.
 
AF makes a MASSIVE difference that anyone can see, EQAA on the other hand? 99% of people wouldn't be able to see the difference between MSAA and MSAA+EQAA.

A lot of fuss kicked up about

1. Something that's old
2. Something people see
3. Something that 99% of people don't care about
4. Something that's still not better then Edge Detect.

Your opinion that its makes A or no noticeable visual difference is irrelevant to whether its available in game or forced through the driver.
The point is for people who want it its easier to have it in game.

There are a lot of AA methods that are available ingame that i dislike but not for one second do i wish that those options were not available ingame for those who do like them.
 
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what would be interesting would to see crossfire added into SFR with fps games.
if the fps is lower wouldnt matter much (add more cards) since you gain the benefit of better framepacing solving the technical challenges to some extent. Unless the fps drops are in the 50´s

SFR isn't good in FPS games as often a large part of the screen is just sky with relatively light render load - lucid tried dynamic tiled SFR style rendering and the performance gain was insignificant over traditional methods in most cases with a lot more potential issues.

I feel like I've stepped back in time to 2006 reading this thread :| (aside from the command queue stuff). If it wasn't for the mention of mantle I'd have thought it was an old thread resurrection.
 
SFR isn't good in FPS games as often a large part of the screen is just sky with relatively light render load - lucid tried dynamic tiled SFR style rendering and the performance gain was insignificant over traditional methods in most cases with a lot more potential issues.

I feel like I've stepped back in time to 2006 reading this thread :| (aside from the command queue stuff). If it wasn't for the mention of mantle I'd have thought it was an old thread resurrection.

I cant play using dual cards etc..as the sync issues make me go nuts.
 
Ah so you'd rather have 1 frame with multiple GPUs working on it even if the performance increase is less than AFR? I thought you could force CF to use scissors (SFR) or tiled modes? (I've not played with much it since about 2010).
 
Ah so you'd rather have 1 frame with multiple GPUs working on it even if the performance increase is less than AFR? I thought you could force CF to use scissors (SFR) or tiled modes? (I've not played with much it since about 2010).

DirectX gets its SLI / CF settings from the CP, and games have practically no control over that as far as I know. With Mantle, it's up to the developer to include multi-GPU support, and the user can't force anything.
 
Ah so you'd rather have 1 frame with multiple GPUs working on it even if the performance increase is less than AFR? I thought you could force CF to use scissors (SFR) or tiled modes? (I've not played with much it since about 2010).

The problem with forcing SFR is if the game isn't optimized to use this method you get some very bad glitches. Its highly recommend you never use SFR unless the game is made to use it.
 
Ah so you'd rather have 1 frame with multiple GPUs working on it even if the performance increase is less than AFR? I thought you could force CF to use scissors (SFR) or tiled modes? (I've not played with much it since about 2010).

Rroff, Techreport (and AMD) had this to say on SFR. Might be worth checking out pcper too for their opinion on it.

AMD provided us with an explanation of their approach that's worth reading in its entirety, so here it is:

With a traditional graphics API, multi-GPU arrays like AMD CrossFire™ are typically utilized with a rendering method called "alternate-frame rendering" (AFR). AFR renders odd frames on the first GPU, and even frames on the second GPU. Parallelizing a game's workload across two GPUs working in tandem has obvious performance benefits.

As AFR requires frames to be rendered in advance, this approach can occasionally suffer from some issues:

· Large queue depths can reduce the responsiveness of the user's mouse input

· The game's design might not accommodate a queue sufficient for good mGPU scaling

· Predicted frames in the queue may not be useful to the current state of the user’s movement or camera

Thankfully, AFR is not the only approach to multi-GPU. Mantle empowers game developers with full control of a multi-GPU array and the ability to create or implement unique mGPU solutions that fit the needs of the game engine. In Civilization: Beyond Earth, Firaxis designed a "split-frame rendering" (SFR) subsystem. SFR divides each frame of a scene into proportional sections, and assigns a rendering slice to each GPU in AMD CrossFire™ configuration. The "master" GPU quickly receives the work of each GPU and composites the final scene for the user to see on his or her monitor.

If you don’t see 70-100% GPU scaling, that is working as intended, according to Firaxis. Civilization: Beyond Earth’s GPU-oriented workloads are not as demanding as other recent PC titles. However, Beyond Earth’s design generates a considerable amount of work in the producer thread. The producer thread tracks API calls from the game and lines them up, through the CPU, for the GPU's consumer thread to do graphics work. This producer thread vs. consumer thread workload balance is what establishes Civilization as a CPU-sensitive title (vs. a GPU-sensitive one).

Because the game emphasizes CPU performance, the rendering workloads may not fully utilize the capacity of a high-end GPU. In essence, there is no work leftover for the second GPU. However, in cases where the GPU workload is high and a frame might take a while to render (affecting user input latency), the decision to use SFR cuts input latency in half, because there is no long AFR queue to work through. The queue is essentially one frame, each GPU handling a half. This will keep the game smooth and responsive, emphasizing playability, vs. raw frame rates.

Let me provide an example. Let's say a frame takes 60 milliseconds to render, and you have an AFR queue depth of two frames. That means the user will experience 120ms of lag between the time they move the map and that movement is reflected on-screen. Firaxis' decision to use SFR halves the queue down to one frame, reducing the input latency to 60ms. And because each GPU is working on half the frame, the queue is reduced by half again to just 30ms.

In this way the game will feel very smooth and responsive, because raw frame-rate scaling was not the goal of this title. Smooth, playable performance was the goal. This is one of the unique approaches to mGPU that AMD has been extolling in the era of Mantle and other similar APIs.

All I can say is: thank goodness. Let's hope we see more of this kind of thing from AMD and major game studios in the coming months and years. Multi-GPU solutions don't have to double their FPS averages in order to achieve smoother animations or improved responsiveness. I'd much rather see a multi-GPU team producing more modest increases that the user can actually feel and experience.
 
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