A Mustang with a live axle beating an R8 and M3? Surely not possible!!

Jonnycoupe said:
That picture pretty much sums up the basis of Dr Whos points that you are so quick to discredit..... how that is even comparable to IRS on a UK B road I dont know.
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Well it seems to compare pretty well on 90% of the roads I drove one. Yes on an extremely bumpy road the car would feel nervous but such roads were rare, certainly where I live and areas I visited.

I found the car handled very well and certainly far better than some IRS cars to the point that one some of the far worse roads full of bumps/cambers etc. even an IRS equipped car can be a pig.

Yes a decent IRS setup car is better than a live axle equipped car, but to say how is it even comparable to an IRS and to compare it again Black Cabs and old Capri's and Ford Escorts is simply too far. Maybe its me, maybe I was still able to extract the cars power or maybe you guys are unfortunate and have dire roads, but in all honesty I found the Mustang to be fine on UK roads, it was only upset on really poor roads.
 
Gibbo said:
You seem to be failing one major point, I've owned a Mustang, an M3 CSL, driven several M3's. Your deriving your conclusion from a ride in a black cab and escorts/capri's of 30 years ago, really they are not comparable. The live axle in the Mustang is a lot more sorted compared to the item you will find in a black cab and old escorts/capri's......
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There really isn't much to "sort" on a live axle; provided the linkages don't have appalling geometry that cause e.g. roll steer or binding, then spring and damper rates are the most crucial aspect (including ARB). Unfortunately, a live axle is typically a very heavy component (especially one tough enough to take the torque of a high capacity V8) and worst of all it's unsprung weight. It is this that puts the live axle at a disadvantage compared to IRS on bumpy surfaces - even with the best damper technology going, a heavy live axle is never going to be controlled as well as a lighter IRS system, especially in a relatively lightweight car.
 
Gibbo said:
Maybe its me, maybe I was still able to extract the cars power or maybe you guys are unfortunate and have dire roads, but in all honesty I found the Mustang to be fine on UK roads, it was only upset on really poor roads.
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Evidently its only crap drivers who would notice anything then :p

Extract power... mid corner.... during bump conditions? That to me did not appear to be the point under discussion, I think we can agree that its a pretty heavy piece of axle that has to move about to give you wheel compliance. <joke> Sounds like your not pulling enough G if your even thinking about pressing the loud pedal even more :p </joke>
 
Gibbo said:
You seem to be failing one major point, I've owned a Mustang, an M3 CSL, driven several M3's. Your deriving your conclusion from a ride in a black cab and escorts/capri's of 30 years ago, really they are not comparable.
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I have driven more cars than I care to mention here including the cars you mention and a lot of others far faster.

There is nothing to sort with a live axle that isn't sorted by going IRS, lower unsprung weight, independance of inside wheel from outside wheel, more consistent road camber and ability to improve roll centre.

The review stated the same thing I said and you are arguing against, so clearly it is me and autocar wrong or your inability to acknowledge the truth.

I bet any tuner that swapped out the live axle for a decent IRS setup would make that car even more awesome.
 
Gibbo you spent years defending live axles on here, of course you're not going to suddenly say "Yeah I was talking **** that whole time". I'm not saying you are but I don't buy this "I've driven this, that and the other so I know best" when other, shall we say, less biased opinions seem to completely contradict yours. Unfortunately the last live axle car I owned was a 1972 Ford Escort so it would be unfair for me to compare to anything else I've driven in the last 15 years or so.
 
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Wicksta said:
Gibbo you spent years defending live axles on here, of course you're not going to suddenly say "Yeah I was talking **** that whole time". I'm not saying you are but I don't buy this "I've driven this, that and the other so I know best" when other, shall we say, less biased opinions seem to completely contradict yours. Unfortunately the last live axle car I owned was a 1972 Ford Escort so it would be unfair for me to compare to anything else I've driven in the last 15 years or so.
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Especially when he seems to think a well sorted Mk2 Escort is a bad handling car not comparable with a Mustang.

I am not comparing the handling of a mustang with a Black Cab, I am saying that a ride in a black cab will show the inherent issues with a live axle setup, albeit exagerated. They suffer the same issues when being driven on rough surfaces in that they feel nervous when the inside wheel hits a bump, sometimes even in a straight line.

I Don't doubt for one minute a Mustang has a well sorted live axle, but I am not gonna agree it is better on road than a sorted IRS, although on a smooth track you would think it is.
 
I'm not sure how passengers in the Mustang can comment on handling either, you mean perceived grip as Handling is a seperate attribute of vehicle dynamics.
 
Dr Who said:
I Don't doubt for one minute a Mustang has a well sorted live axle, but I am not gonna agree it is better on road than a sorted IRS, although on a smooth track you would think it is.
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I've not said a live axle is better than a sorted IRS.

What I said is the old 2004 Cobra Mustang had an IRS setup and for the 2005 Mustang it went to a live axle, yet the handling had improved on both road and track.

A sorted IRS is the best solution, this I am not disputing. What I am disputing is some including yourself seem under the impression the Mustang, the latest ones are useless on anything but a smooth race track. I found mine well planted, yes poor roads it would have benefited from an IRS as it was harder work especially against the likes of say the EVO, CSL or 911, there is no doubt they are better handling car and liberties could be taken, wheras the Mustang demanded more respect as like you say a live axle can be un-settled more easier than an IRS.

Yes I know an IRS is superior to a live axle, yes you can certainly feel the difference between a sorted live axle car, compared to a sorted IRS car. But and a big but is a sorted Mustang like the one I had or say this BOSS 302, will not be useless on a UK road, yes a poor road will demand more skill and a sorted IRS car would perform better, but I will admit the roads where I have lived its of my oppinion are not that bad, maybe if I had lived in an area of very poor roads my oppinion would be different. As the roads I drive on are average to good quality I found the Mustang to handle well, it was progressive, planted and confident inspiring to drive, albeit after all the work and full GEO setup by Centre of mavity, but I had no issues with it and on PH drives never had any issues keeping up with other cars, and I am not talking just straights, corners as well, except for an R35 GTR because that was simply put superior in corners without a doubt.
 
No, nowhere have i said that the Mustang is useless on road, I said that it isn't as good on road as on track as a live axle is BETTER on a smooth surface.

I think you are oversensitive to any critique of the Mustang's live axle, I have merely stated facts that a live axle has some issues in certain conditions, which is true. Sure, they may have improved the live axle a great deal on the Mustang, like they have on old Escorts, but its shortfalls still exist in the same way that every suspension system has shortfalls, it is merely a choice as to which one you live with.

Just stop taking my constructive critique as slamming the car, as personally, I would a RHD one :D
 
Jonnycoupe said:
I'm not sure how passengers in the Mustang can comment on handling either, you mean perceived grip as Handling is a seperate attribute of vehicle dynamics.
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In fairness, once a Mustang got nervous, a passenger would feel it, as it materialises as tiny sideways hop.
 
Gibbo said:
Hi there


First of all if I posted this previously then sorry, but I really can't remember, so here goes:-


This is the even faster version which Ford claims is upto nearly 2s a lap faster again than the above version as this is the hardcore track varient, wheras the above was the road going version:-

Whichever way you look at it it cost half the price of the M3, has a live axle so its quite some accomplishment. It also goes to show how far ahead Ford are in the handling stakes compared to say GM with the independent rear suspension Camaro and Dodge with the Challenger. Plus how much quicker it is compared round the track to the more powerful GT500.
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Interestingly, in this months Evo they compare the Mustang to the M3 (basically because of the above Laguna Seca times) and found the Mustang to be nearly 4 seconds a lap slower round their test circuit.
 
Dr Who said:
Corvettes do I believe

Oh and Range Rovers/Land Rovers I believe probably many more 4x4's do as well
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Corvettes have independant rear suspension - and have done since 1963 :) It was only the first generation, the C1, that had a solid rear axle.

Most 4x4s have independant rear suspension as well, these days - although the Land Rover Defender doesn't. The Range Rover has had independant suspension since 2002, I think.

Stuff that tends to have solid rear axles tends to be real heavy duty vehicles - vans, pickups, trucks, some American and Japanese 4x4s (both the new Jeep Compass and Jeep Grand Cherokee are independant, however) and so on. Rarely finds its way into performance cars, like the Mustang, mind.

Even the new Camaro has IRS. :)
 
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Lashout_UK said:
Corvettes have independant rear suspension - and have done since 1963 :) It was only the first generation, the C1, that had a solid rear axle.
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My bad, I assumed because even the ZR1 uses leaf springs it still uses a live axle :D

I stand fully corrected :)
 
Laguna Seca is pretty different to Bedford Autodrome, but reading Evo's more comprehensive review I would definitely have to side with their conclusions, not from a biased point of view either.
Im very dissapointed with the RS5 though, surprised it lost out to the Boss and the C63.
 
Alibaba99 said:
Interestingly, in this months Evo they compare the Mustang to the M3 (basically because of the above Laguna Seca times) and found the Mustang to be nearly 4 seconds a lap slower round their test circuit.
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Interesting

American press being biased in favour of American cars... Who would have thought it
 
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