A question about Phd's and Eng Doc's

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OpenToSuggestions

OpenToSuggestions

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Hey all,

I am nearing the end of my manufacturing engineering degree and I am unsure whether I want to stay on at Loughborough to do a Phd or Engineering Doctorate.

I have been here 5 years (inc. placement) and part of me wants to get a graduate job, yet part of me wants to do further study. The funding is certainly there to support me whilst I study.

Just wondering who out there has done a similar study and what comments you have?
Will the extra years really add much to my earning potential?
People off my course are going into graduate jobs paying £22-30k.
I want to go into a graduate job at my placement company (they were good) and they will pay back my tuition fees over time.

Thanks in advance!
 
If you think you want to work, then doing a research degree such as a PhD is not for you.

The PhD is intended for someone who has a burning desire to research an area of the sciences or arts.

Part of me says, if there is funding for you to do, go for it, doing a PhD is still a fairly rare thing, but to do it purely for job prospects is absolutely not a good reason. Without a doubt, in some industries, doing a PhD will give you better prospects, however I can say it probably wont earn you more money, even in the long run!

if you are the type of person who, when they get something in their head just cannot drop it, even if it consumes your life for a while, until you have explored it properly, then tbh you are probably a good candidate for somebody who should become a researcher. If you are somebody who doesn't really mind what they do, finds some things interesting but has no interest in completing it outside of 9-5 hours and craves that pay cheque (nothing wrong with this btw), then you want head straight into industry, as once you have a decent degree as a base, its the years more than the titles that gets you ahead.

That said, engineering is probably one of the few areas that, in some countries, you cant reach the upper echelons of companies without a PhD or equivalent, so maybe that's worth taking into account too. A god example is Germany, take a look through your average large German engineering firms management lists...

Also, I don't know the nature of your work so far, however as a PhD researcher you are not "studying" in the student sense. Sure you get guidance, but the very best way doing a PhD has been described ot me is that you are effectively self employed sat in an office in the uni, your supervisor(s) are like the mates you talk to down the pub who have been doing it for a lot longer than you, but effectively you drive your own work, you specify what you research and you write about it. You submit yourself to journals and conferences and you (with the backup of your supervisory staff) present that work to the wider academic world.

I did a taught MSc before I started my PhD, so I went from student, to slightly more independent student finally to full blown research student, and the difference is so marked there really aren't many comparisons that can be drawn.
 
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I finished my MEng degree in Chemical Engineering and took the plunge and started my PhD straight afterwards. I chose a PhD (also in Chemical Engineering) because of interest in the subject area, and I would like to go down the academic path with regards to future jobs. I find it really interesting - as a first year though I spend forever learning things! My research is in Computational Fluid Mechanics, so I spend my days reading (a lot!), programming, learning programming (:p) and writing papers.

Money isn't too much of an issue - as a UK student I get funding from the EPSRC to do my research. I'm fortunate enough to be sponsored by an industrial partner as well - that is good not for the money but for the contacts and the personnel that I am in touch with. The PhD qualification isn't too important for an Engineering career, but for me it will open a lot of doors to the area I want to go into (computational work).
 
I'm just finishing an EngD - I was netting the equivalent to a salary of ~£30k (London rate PhD pay + industrial top-up), so the money need not be a deciding factor as to doctorate vs. 'proper' job.
 
Do an EngD. It's the perfect balance between academia and working in the industry. You'll have a chance to have your papers published, and work on ground breaking research, but better yet, you'll also work in industry and also work for Chartership. It's an excellent scheme.
 
I'm doing an EngD at the moment. You've got to think about a few things:

The job market is a proper mess for graduates at the moment and there's a good chance you'll land a pretty crappy role with a poor salary. An EngD gets you a foot in with some of the best companies doing cutting edge research, you get well qualified out of it, if you aim your research in the right direction you're pretty much guaranteed a job at the end and the pay is comparable to a higher end graduate role in engineering.

I chose it because I'm returning to engineering after being in IT for a number of years, a lot of the big employers now aren't just recruiting for the sake of recruiting talent and this gets me into a company and specialises my skills.

The flipside is it's a damn sight harder than a graduate role but your career will be much further progressed at the end of the four years than a graduate, especially if you choose the right subject (like sustainability, for example. Hint ;))
 
Depends what you want to do after you get it, it will stand you in good stead for a research and development roll. But for other types of engineering rolls it wouldn't likely be seen as much of a benefit, might even be seen as a negative and you would be better off using your time just actually jumping straight into a graduate roll.
 
I'm just at the end of an EngD (viva in a month) and would thoroughly recommend it.

But... If you don't want to be an academic, I'd get out there and get a job for a couple of years. Any further study you do will be so much better if you have spent some time in industry. If you do want to be an academic, PhD is the route.

Get a job, learn how industry "works" and if you still want more learning, then go back for an EngD.
 
EngD seems more popular than lowly old me doing a PhD :p I think to echo the comments above, it really depends where you want to be in the future. The money shouldn't really be too important, as UK students will (just about always) get grants to do the research for a PhD. In my case, an EngD would have been nice to do, but I was offered to do a PhD here in a collaboration with Johnson-Matthey. The place I work is fantastic and the people I work with are at the top of the academic spectrum, and the industrial connections here are great. I interact with a couple of people from JM, but I've also met and talked to people from Exxon-Mobil and Shell.

The EngD I presume will give you more sustained and "direct" contact with industry and is probably better for securing a role afterwards, but PhD is great for making both industrial and academic contacts and doing research that is what you want to do. Well, almost - I spend quite a bit of my time helping others too :p
 
I spoke to my supervisor today. He is pretty high up in the engineering school and thinks an EngDoc is similar to a Phd. Sustainable manufacturing is so important and is getting forced upon Europe so a huge range of companies (Manufacturing, retail, councils) will want this type of qualification.
 
mglover070588 said:
He is pretty high up in the engineering school and thinks an EngDoc is similar to a Phd.
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Level of novelty required is similar. although an EngD must demonstrate commercial value. Main differences:

PhD is pure research, EngD is 25% taught (part technical, part business)

PhD is usually done in university, EngD is usually done in industry

PhD is notionally 3 years FT, EngD is notionally 4 years

EngD funding is normally better
 
UK-AL05 said:
Is an MSc a good way of testing the waters before going phd? I'm not sure if i want work or do research.
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Well, this is how I did it, there are two MSc paths these days though, taught or by research.

Doing a Masters by research is effectively year one of a PhD with a little emphasis on focus to make sure your thesis tells a complete story, doing a taught masters is a bit like doing an intensive 1 year BSc level degree.

For me it was a nice way to prove to myself that coming from a non-research based ex-poly, I could actually cut it in a proper research environment, however whether I would have done it had i not been offered funding for all my tuition fees, and been lucky enough to offset the cost of living by moving in with family for 12 months, I don't know.

During my MSc I was introduced to the world of academic research such as the underlying ideas of peer-reviewed publication, however as it was taught, there was less of a gap between what I had been doing before.

Honestly your best bet is to go to some open days, get a feel for what it means to be a masters student at that department in that institution.
 
manic_man said:
Well, this is how I did it, there are two MSc paths these days though, taught or by research.

Doing a Masters by research is effectively year one of a PhD with a little emphasis on focus to make sure your thesis tells a complete story, doing a taught masters is a bit like doing an intensive 1 year BSc level degree.

For me it was a nice way to prove to myself that coming from a non-research based ex-poly, I could actually cut it in a proper research environment, however whether I would have done it had i not been offered funding for all my tuition fees, and been lucky enough to offset the cost of living by moving in with family for 12 months, I don't know.

During my MSc I was introduced to the world of academic research such as the underlying ideas of peer-reviewed publication, however as it was taught, there was less of a gap between what I had been doing before.

Honestly your best bet is to go to some open days, get a feel for what it means to be a masters student at that department in that institution.
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This is what I want to do.
http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/admissions/postgraduate-taught/degree_info/msc-acs/
I live 20 mins drive away, so i can live at home as you did. I can also pay for tuition fees easily enough, although I don't think there is much funding available. Apparently this year, there isn't much. I'm expecting a first class(does that increase chances of funding?), so i'll probably apply for funding anyway, then pay if i don't get it. If i didn't mind paying loads for living expenses i would probably go to bristol university instead.

It says "The MSc in Advanced Computer Science is different from almost all other Master's programmes in Computing because of its mix of taught material and individual supervised project work"

Although technically i think its regarded as taught.
 
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Yeah MSc ACS is a taught MSc in most places. That is what I did here at Manchester.

In my case, the reason I was given the Kilburn Scholarship (basically the full tuition fees paid by the University) was because of the fact I achieved a high first class for my BSc, so although it will depend on the reason they give the award out, I would say that many of them are aimed at encouraging people with good undergrad grades to progress into the world of research by way of MSc.

I should also say that, with awards like that, you really dont get unless you ask, there is no automatic allocation process whatsoever. I was all geared up to pay my fees until I just mentioned off the cuff to the postgrad secretary that I would like to be considered for any scholarships etc. that were going. Two days later, suddenly I had all my fees covered :) that was nice!
 
I'm in a similar spot, this time next year I'll be finishing my MEng, and I can't decide whether to pursue more research or go into work. Research has always interested me more, and if I went into work, that would be the kind of the thing I'd want to do, so maybe a Phd or EngD would be a better choice.

I'd never read much about the EngD before now, so what's in here is useful. It certainly seems like it might be a good balance. Anyone done an EngD in the Aerospace/Space sector and have any info?

Thanks
 
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