ADSL MAX: My Experience & Insight

[Housey]

The web is currently full of people moaning about ADSL Max and their experience of it. This very forum has a few posts of this nature, often filled with lots of good intentioned, but wrong information. As a very early adopter of this solution, I felt sharing my experiences may help a few people. I am the General Manager of a Telecoms business and as a frequent home worker who, due to living out of a built up area was stuck with 1Meg, the attraction of faster speeds was to good to pass up.

My service provider is Vispa, but to be honest (though they have been truly excellent) this is not the source of most problems when going ADSL Max. Having said this though, many people seem to lay the problems at the door of their ISP and more often than not wrongly. I went Max in early April. My exchange is a small countryside exchange with roughly 300 domestic properties and 60 business properties connected to it. Suffice to say huge volumes of users were not hitting it, and I was according to BT, the first person on my exchange to go ADSL Max, as I was the first to go Broadband 18 months ago.

ADSL Max is not a contended service like normal ADSL, so this is why you will never see guaranteed 8MB speeds. All ADSL Max services provided via BT copper are up to 8MB services. Once your line is moved to Max there is a 10 day period where BT monitors your line and sets your speed. For most people this will show slow speeds in the first few days, then followed by quicker speeds until on day 10 you should be set to go. For many, and I was a bad case, this does not happen.

I will summarise briefly my situation:
- On Vispa 1Meg service for 12 months. No problems at all
- Went ADSL Max early April
- First 10 days was seeing 40-100kbps speeds!
- BT engaged after 10 days via my ISP
- BT made some sort of remote changes, speeds began to increase
- After 4 days was seeing around 1800kbps - 2400kbps
- BANG! Speeds dropped down to around 300kbps again
- More days of pain followed
- BT engaged once more via my ISP
- BT engineer removed master socket as I had 2, and remote tweaked
- Speeds up and around 2800kbps again
- BANG! Speed dropped down to around 300-400kbps again, 4 days in
- More hair loss
- BT engaged again via my ISP
- BT sends 2 engineers to site as the remote team were seeing line faults..

So, the 2 engineers plug their laptop into the line and start seeing all sorts of problems. They had done this before, but I suspect the previous engineer, who was accompanied this time, was not that switched on to ADSL Max. Result, for the first time BT actually admits there is an issue with my line, now to find out why and where. They remove the master socket, and underneath there is a direct link, which removes my internal wires and extensions from the line. BANG! All seems fine, good tests, all syncs showing good numbers. So, I insist they try again the old way, and again its all pants! So, we seem to have isolated my issue to the loop main (well its taken them 3 attempts!). So I say how come it has worked sporadically then, and how come I have seen 3000kbps with the loop main before?

"Just one of those things" they say.

So, they then fit one of these

http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate.htm

This allows my ADSL connection to bypass the Loop Main in the house and use the clean and fresh line before its distributed to the rest of my extensions. It also removes the need to filter the line on a point-by-point basis, as this box does it all.

I sit here today and things are great. I am confident we have solved my problem as there have also been some changes in my line settings. For over 12 months I have had Line Attenuation of 46db now its 43db. I have also seen my Noise Margin and Sync Speed change by the day and on occasion by the hour, with Sync around 4800kbps and Noise Margin between 10db and 19.1db. For many weeks now I have had a solid and stable sync of 4992bps and Noise Margin of 22.9db, and Speed Tests of 3300kbps. For me that is good as I am a good distance from my exchange and rural.

There are a number of considerations with ADSL Max that are different to normal ADSL, and I shall list some below:

1) Noise on the line is a huge factor with Max
2) Internal wires can impact on the performance you get and should be checked if you are slow after 10 days.
3) Sync speed IS NOT download speed!
4) Switching your modem/router off during those 10 days is not advised as this will cause the BT test to restart.
5) You will get slower speeds with some ISP's during busy times.
6) You won't get 8MB downloads
7) This is interesting http://www.adslguide.org.uk/newsarchive.asp?item=2699
8) As is this http://www.btplc.com/Thegroup/Networkstory/NetworkStory.html
9) If your ISP is oversubscribed you will get slow speeds
10) Line Attenuation Low, Noise Margin High is what you want!
11) The people who send engineers to your house are different to your ISP, even if your ISP is BT! They will need to be guided by your ISP and your ISP will need to be persistent.
12) BT Speed Test is what BT use. When you run this, it is logged by BT and used for validation of your problems. If you are slow, run several, on an hourly basis!
13) It is a new service, BT and the ISP's are learning.
14) Changing ISP's is not always the solution.
15) Line Noise, internal wires and distance from the exchange will all cause problems, and they are common to all ISP's.

I hope this helps. I don't have the answer to everyone's problems, but hopefully this helps a few people and is based on experience and knowledge rather than gleening other peoples ideas (which are mostly wrong) from Google or ISP forums.

Good luck, and stick with it!

 

[tolien]

This very forum has a few posts of this nature, often filled with lots of good intentioned, but wrong information.

Indeed, though most get picked up. Yours has its fair share of errors too.
For reference, the Max information in the FAQ was based on what was available at the time, which is now not entirely accurate. Keeping up with Max is a moving target.

ADSL Max is not a contended service like normal ADSL

"ADSL Max"/"MaxDSL"/IPStream Max/DataStream Max is just "normal ADSL", and is a contended service, you just see the effects of it more than you used to with the fixed rate services.

Once your line is moved to Max there is a 10 day period where BT monitors your line and sets your speed.

Sort of, it depends how you define "sets your speed".
By the time the 10 days are up, the BRAS limit should have set itself, and BTw will have collected their "Maximum Stable Rate".

Result, for the first time BT actually admits there is an issue with my line, now to find out why and where. They remove the master socket, and underneath there is a direct link, which removes my internal wires and extensions from the line. BANG! All seems fine, good tests, all syncs showing good numbers.

This is what plenty of people on this forum have been harping on about for long enough (long before Max was a reality) - if you expect any kind of stable service (especially in an environment where you're trying to get as much out of your connection as possible at the expense of a large SNR margin), you need to eliminate dodgy internal wiring.

This allows my ADSL connection to bypass the Loop Main in the house

You mean you removed all your dodgy extension wiring. "Loop Main" is meaningless.

For many weeks now I have had a solid and stable sync of 4992bps and Noise Margin of 22.9db, and Speed Tests of 3300kbps.

You could quite easily get much more with an SNR margin like that, but of course you knew that.

There are a number of considerations with ADSL Max that are different to normal ADSL, and I shall list some below:

1) Noise on the line is a huge factor with Max
2) Internal wires can impact on the performance you get and should be checked if you are slow after 10 days.

No different from "normal ADSL".

3) Sync speed IS NOT download speed!

no one's ever said it was. There is a relationship between the two though.

4) Switching your modem/router off during those 10 days is not advised as this will cause the BT test to restart.

False.

5) You will get slower speeds with some ISP's during busy times.
6) You won't get 8MB downloads

True.

10) Line Attenuation Low, Noise Margin High is what you want!
11) The people who send engineers to your house are different to your ISP, even if your ISP is BT!

no one's said otherwise.

They will need to be guided by your ISP and your ISP will need to be persistent.

Guided?

12) BT Speed Test is what BT use. When you run this, it is logged by BT and used for validation of your problems. If you are slow, run several, on an hourly basis!

True, though it has known issues with dodgy results on higher speed services.

13) It is a new service, BT and the ISP's are learning.

Quite, though after the length of time spent in trial, both should already have been through a decent learning process.

14) Changing ISP's is not always the solution.

Not necessarily true.

15) Line Noise, internal wires and distance from the exchange will all cause problems, and they are common to all ISP's.

True.

 

[Housey]

Indeed, though most get picked up. Yours has its fair share of errors too.
For reference, the Max information in the FAQ was based on what was available at the time, which is now not entirely accurate. Keeping up with Max is a moving target.

I did not read the FAQ's, I was not posting 'against' the FAQ's, I was posting MY EXPERIENCE

"ADSL Max"/"MaxDSL"/IPStream Max/DataStream Max is just "normal ADSL", and is a contended service, you just see the effects of it more than you used to with the fixed rate services."

As its running at higher speeds the line noise issue is more apparent, my point!

Sort of, it depends how you define "sets your speed".

Your point?

By the time the 10 days are up, the BRAS limit should have set itself, and BTw will have collected their "Maximum Stable Rate".

Using big words to say what I said. I tried to keep it simple, you seem to want to pontificate.

This is what plenty of people on this forum have been harping on about for long enough (long before Max was a reality) - if you expect any kind of stable service (especially in an environment where you're trying to get as much out of your connection as possible at the expense of a large SNR margin), you need to eliminate dodgy internal wiring.

My experience and my point!

You mean you removed all your dodgy extension wiring. "Loop Main" is meaningless.

Now your just getting even more pedantic!

You could quite easily get much more with an SNR margin like that, but of course you knew that.

You seem to think I am trying to score points. You MISS the whole basis of my post. Unlike you I want to share experience, not show everyone how clever I think I am!

No different from "normal ADSL".

And I said it was where?

no one's ever said it was. There is a relationship between the two though.

You seem to think I am arguing against this forum or you. I have 3 friends who all believed this was that case, hence the post!

False.

True

True.

Again, trying to show off

no one's said otherwise.

I refer you to my previous response.

Guided?

Typically your ISP will need to instigate the BT engineers in the first instance, unless you want to pay for them!

True, though it has known issues with dodgy results on higher speed services.

Once again you just wish to be pedantic!

Quite, though after the length of time spent in trial, both should already have been through a decent learning process.

But they obviously have not learnt, my point.

Not necessarily true.

Which is why I said 'not always'

True.

May I suggest you read what I posted first, and understand why it was posted and the context in which it was posted before you try to pick holes. My post was meant to help, your post is meant to lecture. The difference is subtle but obvious. I bow to your greater knowledge, hopefully everyone else may just find it helps them with their issues, though as I also said it might not!

 

[Jez]

Your post is not 100% accurate, but yes it should cut down on some of the repeat threads.

For the record this "10 day" things is nonesense. Your BRAS profile will have set itself after 3 days at most. I am not totally sure why ISP's are misleading people by telling them that there is a training period. It'll sync as fast as it can, all the time.

I am also not understanding your noise margin figure @ that 5mbit sync, your router should have autosync'ed at a much higher rate than that to meet with BT's set target for your line, which due to your line history could be as high as 15db, but certainly nowhere near 22! I can only assume you have quoted your US noise margin and not the DS?

 

[Phil99]

Tolien = Correct
housemaster = Incorrect in some aspects (that Tolien picked up on)

I know it was done with good intentions, but you're posting a lot of incorrect information which is only going to add to confusions, e.g. "4) Switching your modem/router off during those 10 days is not advised as this will cause the BT test to restart." is complete rubbish

 

[tolien]

I did not read the FAQ's, I was not posting 'against' the FAQ's, I was posting MY EXPERIENCE

I didn't say you were, it was a statement of fact, given it was me that wrote the FAQ.
It wasn't exclusively directed at you either...

Unlike you...show everyone how clever I think I am!

You evidently think you're clever, given your (weak) attempt at psychiatry.

It was a statement of fact - at the expense of a reduced SNR margin, you'd get a higher sync rate and correspondingly higher throughput. Most people want that, so I thought it was worth pointing out, but assumed you would already be aware of that. As thanks for that, you attacked me.

And I said it was where?

There are a number of considerations with ADSL Max that are different to normal ADSL

You seem to think I am arguing against this forum or you.

This very forum has a few posts of this nature, often filled with...wrong information.

I have 3 friends who all believed this was that case, hence the post!

It's a common misconception. ISPs could do a better job of explaining contention, but "your connection might be 5 times slower at peak times, and there's nothing we can/will do about it" is hardly popular.

True

No, it's wrong.
Switching your modem or router off dozens of times an hour might be a problem, but it certainly won't reset the "10 day learning process", nor will it cause a problem with the DLM.
Switching it off once a day used to be recommended as a cure for the problem people saw with the sticky BRAS limits, but it would appear that's been fixed.

Once again you just wish to be pedantic!

What?
BT themselves have said that the results it gives on higher speed services are potentially inaccurate, so how the hell is that pedantry?

understand why it was posted and the context in which it was posted

That much is obvious, you were aiming to prevent misconceptions, which is perfectly fair (and to be applauded), but some of your content is some combination of inaccurate or unclear.
My intent was to point that out, nothing more.

Edit: Meh, some of this has been covered already

 

[Housey]

I didn't say you were, it was a statement of fact, given it was me that wrote the FAQ.
It wasn't exclusively directed at you either...



You evidently think you're clever, given your (weak) attempt at psychiatry.

It was a statement of fact - at the expense of a reduced SNR margin, you'd get a higher sync rate and correspondingly higher throughput. Most people want that, so I thought it was worth pointing out, but assumed you would already be aware of that. As thanks for that, you attacked me.

I









It's a common misconception. ISPs could do a better job of explaining contention, but "your connection might be 5 times slower at peak times, and there's nothing we can/will do about it" is hardly popular.



No, it's wrong.
Switching your modem or router off dozens of times an hour might be a problem, but it certainly won't reset the "10 day learning process", nor will it cause a problem with the DLM.
Switching it off once a day used to be recommended as a cure for the problem people saw with the sticky BRAS limits, but it would appear that's been fixed.



What?
BT themselves have said that the results it gives on higher speed services are potentially inaccurate, so how the hell is that pedantry?



That much is obvious, you were aiming to prevent misconceptions, which is perfectly fair (and to be applauded), but some of your content is some combination of inaccurate or unclear.
My intent was to point that out, nothing more.

Edit: Meh, some of this has been covered already

No, your intent was to be smug and condescending, as your follow up post shows. I have neither the time or the inclination to argue with you and I stand by my post and the context in which it was made.

 

[Jez]

No, your intent was to be smug and condescending, as your follow up post shows. I have neither the time or the inclination to argue with you and I stand by my post and the context in which it was made.

Your line stats done make any sense at all. Either you have manually manipulated the target SNR, or you have quoted your US SNR? Left to its own devices that sync makes no sense.

 

[Housey]

Your line stats done make any sense at all. Either you have manually manipulated the target SNR, or you have quoted your US SNR? Left to its own devices that sync makes no sense.

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream

Connection Speed 4992 kbps 448 kbps

Line Attenuation 43.0 db 23.0 db

Noise Margin 22.9 db 19.0 db

Does that help..

 

[Jez]

That is really really strange if you havent manipulated it yourself You should be seeing a 6k sync or so with a reduced to target SNR.

 

[Housey]

That is really really strange if you havent manipulated it yourself You should be seeing a 6k sync or so with a reduced to target SNR.

Nope, I have 'manipulated' nothing. This site may be frequented by a society of 'tweakers' but I am not one of them. Mr standard out of the box is my preferred route.

Those stats were pulled straight from my Router (Netgear 834GT) and it has sync'd at nearly 8k in the past, but always settles to just below 5k a couple of days after I have rebooted or powered up after a power down.

 

[Housey]

Though thinking about it BT did remote 'tweak' it some weeks ago when we were trying to 'work' my problems through??

 

[Jez]

The SNR will fluctate with outside interferance and network load. It is possible that when your 834 connected your SNR was at a low and thus its connected at that low rate, this has obviously since increased to that very large margin.

Must be a line prone to a lot of interferance, you could get more out of it but it might prove unstable if it really is swinging like that

 

[tolien]

No, your intent was to be smug and condescending, as your follow up post shows.

Awww, how sweet.

I have neither the time or the inclination to argue with you

Nor I you, if your only recourse is attacks.

It's possible that BTw turned up your target SNR margin (or it was done automatically), but 23dB is extremely high. It could be that it's set to 14dB though, since in your OP you said your SNR margin swung by 9dB...

 

[Housey]

The SNR will fluctate with outside interferance and network load. It is possible that when your 834 connected your SNR was at a low and thus its connected at that low rate, this has obviously since increased to that very large margin.

Must be a line prone to a lot of interferance, you could get more out of it but it might prove unstable if it really is swinging like that

It gives me a solid 3.3Meg, which will suffice. I would rather have a slightly slower speed but consistent performance/stability everytime, and that is what I have now.

During the first few days of Max I was getting 20K, and yes, that's 20k

 

[Housey]

Snip
It's possible that BTw turned up your target SNR margin, but 23dB is extremely high. It could be that it's set to 14dB though, since in your OP you said your SNR margin swung by 9dB...

My original post said "For many weeks now I have had a solid and stable sync of 4992bps and Noise Margin of 22.9db, and Speed Tests of 3300kbps". It swung before my loop main (or wires in de ows!) were removed from the initial entry point, and not after, unless I reboot the router in which case it takes a couple of days but then settles back to the numbers above.

 

[tolien]

If it doesn't change at all (which seems unlikely) now, you should still be able to get more with no loss of stability. Especially since another 300kbps would get you up to the 4.5Mbps BRAS limit (ie another 500kbps download), and leave you with an SNR margin that was still >15dB.

Your ISP should be able to tell you what your target SNR margin is set to, and/or reset it.

This (from AAISP) makes worthwhile reading.

 

[Housey]

Tolien = Correct
housemaster = Incorrect in some aspects (that Tolien picked up on)

I know it was done with good intentions, but you're posting a lot of incorrect information which is only going to add to confusions, e.g. "4) Switching your modem/router off during those 10 days is not advised as this will cause the BT test to restart." is complete rubbish

Sorry, I am not posting a lot of incorrect information, and point 4 came from BT, though I appreciate they have been know to be wrong....