Advice please on Hi Fi Speakers?

[Greg_K]

Hi,
First post ever on any forum!
Many years ago I bought a compact Hi fi seperates system by pioneer.
It comprises:-
1. An FM/AM Stereo Tuner called Pioneer F-C3
2. A Stereo Cassettte Deck called Pioneer T-C3
3. A Stereo Amplifier called Pioneer A-C3
4. A Compact Disc Player called Pioneer PD-C3

At the time they came as a bundle with the shop recommended speakers of two KEF Coda 7 speakers in black.

I have recently gone back to using them all and added a Technics SL1200 MK2 turntable intending to refurb a room and have it as a listening room.

I love the sound and love the speakers and their power, sensitivity and lack of distortion BUT the covers are a little bleached by the sun and the laminate is wrinkled in parts. I have thought of getting some 2nd hand KEF Coda7 but would like something that sounds as good or better but also looks good.

I don’t know anything about them really but I like the look of the Bang and Olufsen Beolab 8000 MK2 speakers. From what I have seen they are hi fi speakers rather than dedicated surround sound type speakers. I know they are active. If I could have the sound that I get from the KEF Coda 7 but with the look of the Beolab or anything more discreet then I would be very happy.

Can anyone help me with some advice as I have my eye on some 2nd hand ones that are in good working order and great looking condition?

Many thanks indeed for any advice re compatibility, sound quality comparison.

Cheers,

Greg_K

 

[lucid]

Welcome to the forum.

I'm glad you know that the B&O speakers are active. That saves me a hell of a lot of typing explaining what that's about. I can cut to the chase now and tell you that they're not going to work directly with the Pioneer A-C3 amp. Sorry, but there's no point beating around the bush.

Since the B&O speakers have their own amplification built in, then they're not driven in the same way as the KEFs or other conventional speakers. The B&Os require an amp with a Pre-Out connection. The A-C3 doesn't have that.

If you haven't come across the idea before, Pre-Out is the signal from the pre-amp part of an amplifier before it gets to the power-amp stage where the signal is multiplied in strength to drive the speaker terminals of conventional (passive) speakers. The Pre-Out signal is similar to what you'd get from the Tape 1 Rec Out, but it's not a fixed volume; instead, it varies in loudness with the volume control.

The Coda 7 are mid-size bookshelf/stand-mount speakers. The tonal balance is neutral and the bass isn't overemphasised. Bass extension is on a par with similar sized speakers. The high sensitivity made them a good partner for low to medium powered integrated amps, and they were detailed enough to let the mini/midi systems shine without being so analytical that they'd show up the limits of the sources and amp in the process. All round then, a useful upgrade for mini/midi systems.

The B&O speakers do look epic. They were bloody expensive new, and they still command hefty resale values in the used market. £500-£800 is about the average going rate. Being pencil-thin does mean a trade-off in bass reproduction. They have less bass output than the little KEFs. A subwoofer is definitely recommended.

If I have a concern about the B&Os it's that £4,000-£5,000 speakers tend to be partnered with gear at a similar level. The KEFs and the Pioneer system are a reasonable match. The B&Os could be like sitting with the audio equivalent of a big magnifying glass on the sound. It could pick the system apart quite ruthlessly. Great looking speakers, but not so much of a happy marriage.

The question is though, what else to look at? Thin speakers are always something of a compromise. The smaller-diameter bass drivers tend to pull the overall efficiency down. The cabinet size and driver diameter limits the bass depth. Sonic performance to match conventionally-sized means doubling or tripling the budget if music is key.

KEFs own KHT5005 system with the optional floor stands was decent for surround sound and passable for music, but no match for its full-sized speakers. Back in the late 90's Celestion played around with a extruded aluminium parabolic case design in their C-series. That made them slimmer than their peers and they sounded good too. (Look up Celestion C3).

The closest that comes to mind is the Monitor Audio Radius 270. These metre-tall floorstanders are about 18cm wide if you don't count the base plinth. They've been around since the mid 2000's at least, and gone through several revisions including various reworkings of the name:Radius 270, R270 and R270HD. Although floor standing, they still have the limited bass due to the small bass driver size, but in all other respects they can be considered serious Hi-Fi speakers.

They'd need a sub to fill in the bottom end, and due to the Pioneer A-C3 not having a dedicated subwoofer output, then you'll need a sub that can accept a signal via the speaker wire connection (it's called Hi-Level). BK subs would be a good place to start. Their Gemini II or XLS200 are good without breaking the bank. If you have the disposable, then the xxls400 beckons or the Monolith which isn't much more.

 

[Greg_K]

Fantastic, just the kind of detailed advice I was looking and hoping for. Many many thanks. I certainly get the ‘matching’ quality principle. I will rule out the Beolab and look at the better matches you suggest. They don’t have to be old or second hand just perform no less than the Coda 7 and be either discreet or attractive design.
Your post is really helpful thank you

 

[signs]

good post that @lucid

 

[the shadow]

KEF Coda 7 had them loved them

 

[JasonM]

Lucid, do you have any experience of the Peter Jones Elac speakers?

 

[lucid]

Do you mean Andrew Jones?

If so, he's a designer who has focused on making budget speakers perform better.

He did some work for Pioneer in the US. They've a strong brand presence there, but the budget audiophile speaker market hasn't been something they've had any success cracking. Partly that's due to US buyers not being that interested in small bookshelf speakers, so the US speaker makers never really focussed on them, which then fed back in to the market perception that small speakers are crap. A vicious circle kind of thing.

That perception is changing. Over the last couple of decades, UK speaker brands have gained some traction in the US and very positive reviews. Pioneer have tapped in to that new interest with products that are now seriously competitive in the US market. Britain is still a tough nut to crack though because we have arguably the world's best speaker manufacturers based here.

Elac is a German brand. Their signature product is their JET ribbon tweeter. They make some really good speakers, but the cost of the ribbon tweeter means they can't use it in price competitive budget bookshelf speakers.

Elac is using Jones' design and his reputation to produce what they would consider budget speakers with conventional drivers. Again though, the UK market is a tough nut to crack because there are already some exception bookshelf speakers from the home team. That means Elac can't replicate Pioneer's US success here.

I did consider mentioning Elac and Canton. However, I didn't think Elac would be avant-garde enough for you. Canton (Karat) is slim looking but very deep, so again I ruled them out.

 

[JasonM]

Do you mean Andrew Jones?

Yes I'm thinking of some Elac B6.2's for my home office.

 

[lucid]

For a system where you regularly play at high volumes and you've got a punchy and powerful amp then these could be fine.

Where you're looking for more background listening levels and the amp is more.modest then you might want to look elsewhere.

What's the partnering gear and the room layout and your relative listening position?

 

[JasonM]

For a system where you regularly play at high volumes and you've got a punchy and powerful amp then these could be fine.

Where you're looking for more background listening levels and the amp is more.modest then you might want to look elsewhere.

What's the partnering gear and the room layout and your relative listening position?

I have not measured but room is about 9 x 11 foot. It was built some years ago above the garage.

Down full length of one side of the room is 2 x Ikea Galant curve desks + various Ikea Galant addons, they take up almost the 11 foot length., and curve a little around the edges of the room.

In the middle of the desks above is a triple monitor stand with 3 monitors.

Current setup is a hybrid Edifier 2.1 setup, it's a Edifier S530 however the satellite speakers have been replaced by 2 passive speakers from 2 sets of Edifier R1600T's, remember the ones that were common on OCUK 4-5 years ago. The bass unit on the S530 is set to just give gentle fill in of sound at bottom end. Source is an Asus ST (original PCI version). I'm running a i7 8700 on a Gigabyte Z370 HD3P with legacy PCI support in case your wondering how I run that old card.

The 2 R1600T's are positioned very wide (wider then they should be) on edges of those triple monitors, sound field/stage is not good.

Partnering amp would be a Pioneer AMP/DAC thats rated at 60w RMS per channel at 8 ohm. I know the amp is superior to whats included in the Edifier S530, I also know the integrated DAC is at least as good as the Asus ST, tested all this on other speakers.

Option 1) Is not to do anything and just run as is. The setup I have at the moment is reasonable quality given what it's doing. In terms of sound quality it's like normal R1600T's, but with added low frequency support from the sub. Sub setting goes from -9 (off) to +9 (full on) and I run the sub at +2.

Option 2) Is to replace everything, and just run 2 quality desktop speakers from the Pioneer amp/dac I mentioned, then as the dac in pioneer is better than Asus ST, ditch the Asus ST also and run from motherboards SPDIF.

Concerns with above.

Not much space on desk, I noticed the Elac B6.2 are quite big, also they could be wasted on me I as might not be able to position them due to space. Could look at other speakers that are smaller. Elac B5's could be an option.

You raise a good point however, this is more for background music while working. If I have something that requires more volume it could be counter productive.

Went into note form there, but gives good idea of what I have.

 

[lucid]

For low-level listening you want a speaker that's going to 'come alive' easily, and that has a bit of bass warmth and treble lift. That last bit, or an amp with a Loudness button or bass and treble controls to tweak the sound for low-level listening. TBH, my gut feeling is that the Elacs are not the right sort of speakers for this.

Monitor Audio Bronze 2 (or the older BX2 in the used market, which are a good buy) fit the role better. They're an 8 Ohm speaker and have higher sensitivity (90db vs 87dB). Size-wise, they're about on par with the Elacs, but at £220 they're almost 1/3rd cheaper.

While the tone of the speaker and its electrical characteristics will help or hinder low-level listening, it won't fix the sound stage depth issue.

My understanding of your description is that you're sitting facing the wall with the speakers firing across the listening space at a shallow angle. In effect, its sort of giant headphones. If that's the case, then sound-stage depth is always doing to be a problem because the speakers afe firing from the side rather than in front. To get a decent sound stage, the speakers and listening position should form and equilateral triangle. Your room doesn't allow that. The other issue is the relatively short distance from the speakers to the listening point. Domestic Hi-Fi speakers aren't near-field monitors.

I think there'll always be some compromises. I'd get the tonal balance right and then just accept that stereo imaging won't be possible because of the room layout.