Age old question: Pair of new tyres, fit on front or rear?

Doobedoo said:
I’ve never heard of story after story of people losing the back end because they put new tyres on the front rather than the rear.
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You hear plenty who lose the back end on bends / roundabouts due to 'black ice' or 'a patch of diesel' and so on though.

I'd be wholly unsurprised to find out that actually a lack of water clearing ability on rear tyres is actually to blame for a lot of these cases but people prefer to point at uncontrolled things rather than consider a choice they made may have influenced it.
 
Doobedoo said:
It’s an extreme case scenario. We know this because it’s not a normal occurrence, I’ve never heard of story after story of people losing the back end because they put new tyres on the front rather than the rear. If it was such a big issue the law would be changed.

In an everyday scenario you would need the most grip on the front axle, the axle that does all the work. That’s why the fronts wear quicker than the rears.

I agree if your driving on an skid pan or very heavy rain you want new tyres on the rear, better still just slow down, but for everything else you want better tyres on the front.
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This is ridiculous logic though. Just because you have never heard of it doesn't mean it isn't an occurance. There will be hundreds of road traffic incidents happening every day with cars having accidents / losing control that you wont here of, wont be reported on, and wont make any kind of news. The vast majority of these will be minor incidents with no kind of investigation done into why they occur, but trying to claim that at least some aren't occuring because of poor tyre balance, or a loss of control due to the rear end losing grip isn't happening beause you haven't heard of it is deeply flawed.

It seems like you are arguing this just for the sake of it? The smiple fact is that the vast majority of tyre manufactrures disagree with you, and organisations like the AA disagree with you as well.

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/tyre-life-and-age

Simply applying some logic to it shows why this is a good idea as well. All tyre situations in terms of tread depth / fitment / quality etc arent an issue, until the time grip runs out, and they are. In a situation where grip is running out, if you loose grip on the front, most peoples initial reaction will be to lift off the accelerator, brake, or both. When you do this your car slows down, weight shifts forward, and the tyres that were running out of grip suddenly have more weight and thus more grip, hopefully allowing you to control the situation. When your back tyres loose grip, most people will do the same. This then means as the car slows down, weight shifts forward and the tyres loosing grip have even less grip, and you likely end up facing the opposite way round. How badly this ends of course depends on the situation.

Ultimately in an every day situation this is all irrelevant as the tyres wont be at the limit of grip, but ultimately when they exceed their limits most drivers will want them to be as controlable as possible. The simple fact is that having more grip on the rear will create a more asily controlable situation for you when these limits are exceeded.
 
MissChief said:
:p

I’ve always replaced like for like on my cars, need new fronts? New tyres on the front. Need new rears? New tyres on the rear. I’ve never felt it unsafe.
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Same. If the garage wants to put the new ones on the rear then I let them unless they try and spin a line about having to balance them for £xx :rolleyes:
 
BinnsY said:
This is ridiculous logic though. Just because you have never heard of it doesn't mean it isn't an occurance. There will be hundreds of road traffic incidents happening every day with cars having accidents / losing control that you wont here of, wont be reported on, and wont make any kind of news. The vast majority of these will be minor incidents with no kind of investigation done into why they occur, but trying to claim that at least some aren't occuring because of poor tyre balance, or a loss of control due to the rear end losing grip isn't happening beause you haven't heard of it is deeply flawed.

It seems like you are arguing this just for the sake of it? The smiple fact is that the vast majority of tyre manufactrures disagree with you, and organisations like the AA disagree with you as well.

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/tyre-life-and-age

Simply applying some logic to it shows why this is a good idea as well. All tyre situations in terms of tread depth / fitment / quality etc arent an issue, until the time grip runs out, and they are. In a situation where grip is running out, if you loose grip on the front, most peoples initial reaction will be to lift off the accelerator, brake, or both. When you do this your car slows down, weight shifts forward, and the tyres that were running out of grip suddenly have more weight and thus more grip, hopefully allowing you to control the situation. When your back tyres loose grip, most people will do the same. This then means as the car slows down, weight shifts forward and the tyres loosing grip have even less grip, and you likely end up facing the opposite way round. How badly this ends of course depends on the situation.

Ultimately in an every day situation this is all irrelevant as the tyres wont be at the limit of grip, but ultimately when they exceed their limits most drivers will want them to be as controlable as possible. The simple fact is that having more grip on the rear will create a more asily controlable situation for you when these limits are exceeded.
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really good explanation that
 
BinnsY said:
This is ridiculous logic though. Just because you have never heard of it doesn't mean it isn't an occurance. There will be hundreds of road traffic incidents happening every day with cars having accidents / losing control that you wont here of, wont be reported on, and wont make any kind of news. The vast majority of these will be minor incidents with no kind of investigation done into why they occur, but trying to claim that at least some aren't occuring because of poor tyre balance, or a loss of control due to the rear end losing grip isn't happening beause you haven't heard of it is deeply flawed.

It seems like you are arguing this just for the sake of it? The smiple fact is that the vast majority of tyre manufactrures disagree with you, and organisations like the AA disagree with you as well.

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/tyre-life-and-age

Simply applying some logic to it shows why this is a good idea as well. All tyre situations in terms of tread depth / fitment / quality etc arent an issue, until the time grip runs out, and they are. In a situation where grip is running out, if you loose grip on the front, most peoples initial reaction will be to lift off the accelerator, brake, or both. When you do this your car slows down, weight shifts forward, and the tyres that were running out of grip suddenly have more weight and thus more grip, hopefully allowing you to control the situation. When your back tyres loose grip, most people will do the same. This then means as the car slows down, weight shifts forward and the tyres loosing grip have even less grip, and you likely end up facing the opposite way round. How badly this ends of course depends on the situation.

Ultimately in an every day situation this is all irrelevant as the tyres wont be at the limit of grip, but ultimately when they exceed their limits most drivers will want them to be as controlable as possible. The simple fact is that having more grip on the rear will create a more asily controlable situation for you when these limits are exceeded.
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Tell that to DVSA because they obviously don’t think it’s a problem. Anyhoo been putting new on the fronts for most of my driving life never been an issue. Maybe because I drive within the limits of what the vehicle is capable of and don’t skimp on tyres.

I’m sure it’s happened to someone perhaps they were one of the masses who stick any old tyre (usually cheaper the better) on any wheel.
 
Bug One said:
Welcome to the Internet. :p
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If that was the desired effect then one would frequent SC or GD ;).

Like I said it’s very logical the way it was explained, my response is DVSA doesn’t believe it to be sufficient to actually make it law neither has my own experience to consider it to be essential. I work within the garage industry I know how strict DVSA are about brake testing or emissions for example but not not so much about this wide spread issue.
 
Doobedoo said:
If that was the desired effect then one would frequent SC or GD ;).

Like I said it’s very logical the way it was explained, my response is DVSA doesn’t believe it to be sufficient to actually make it law neither has my own experience to consider it to be essential. I work within the garage industry I know how strict DVSA are about brake testing or emissions for example but not not so much about this wide spread issue.
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If DVSA cared at all they’d put regulations into place about minimum tyre performance to get all these cheap ditchfinders off sale.
 
Doobedoo said:
If that was the desired effect then one would frequent SC or GD ;).

Like I said it’s very logical the way it was explained, my response is DVSA doesn’t believe it to be sufficient to actually make it law neither has my own experience to consider it to be essential. I work within the garage industry I know how strict DVSA are about brake testing or emissions for example but not not so much about this wide spread issue.
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5mm of treat is better than 1.6mm of tread in standing water too but obviously they aren't going to make it law to have 5mm of tread.
 
Kenai said:
You hear plenty who lose the back end on bends / roundabouts due to 'black ice' or 'a patch of diesel' and so on though.

I'd be wholly unsurprised to find out that actually a lack of water clearing ability on rear tyres is actually to blame for a lot of these cases but people prefer to point at uncontrolled things rather than consider a choice they made may have influenced it.
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Yep some of the small hatchbacks can get the rear out pretty easily. Lift off or brake mid corner and they can go in the wet. Especially the small Renaults, they love to play.
 
Nasher said:
Yep some of the small hatchbacks can get the rear out pretty easily. Lift off or brake mid corner and they can go round in the wet if they dont have TC.
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The only FWD car I had that’s ever done this was my 306 GTI-6 which was known for it and it was easy to control and very ‘talkative’. And it was really my fault too. Other than my first car all my cars have been FWD and it’s never happened to me.
 
MissChief said:
The only FWD car I had that’s ever done this was my 306 GTI-6 which was known for it and it was easy to control and very ‘talkative’. And it was really my fault too. Other than my first car all my cars have been FWD and it’s never happened to me.
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With fiesta St’s it’s a buying point and a negative of a polo gti pointed out in reviews. No back end movement equals less fun to some. Personally on a track maybe but on the roads not so much.
205’s were known for it due to the rear torsion beam.
 
Losing the back end due to aquaplaning on low tread tyres isn't remotely the same discussion as a playful chassis where the rear end can be deliberately provoked in a controlled manner.
 
Doobedoo said:
I think ultimately it falls under driver error likely to be because of excess speed for the conditions of the road.
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Condition of the road and the car, given it wouldn't happen in the same way if the car had a higher tread bias towards the rear, as demonstrated in the video posted earlier.
 
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