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AGEIA respond to ATI physics..not with benchmarks but with excuses
- Thread starter ihatelag
- Start date
Silver21uk said:
Well a physx card that is sub £100, has good support and produces decent effects would probably be a big success, at the moment physx is overpriced and undersupported and has had a very bad start in the eyes of the tech community, and only die hard must have the latest tech people are going to buy it but even then many seem to be unimpressed and unwilling to purchase. I can't see physx being a success at all at it's current price point tbh, especially when offered to pc gamers who are probably already sick ofbeing fleeced over gfx cards etc. And having to buy another x1900 for added physics is utter lunacy tbh.
“the way this guy is going …………..crisis management by AGEIA tbh.“
I do not work for AGEIA and I do not represent them. So it has nothing to do with crisis management by AGEIA. So can we please stop it with the stupid comments? If you don’t agree with me that’s fine but don’t accurse me of working for AGEIA just so you can ignore my facts.
It appears some of you think AGEIA implanted me in these forums in 2002 ready to spring out today for their card today, which is a silly thought. How can I prove I don’t work for AGEIA?
I do not work for AGEIA and I do not represent them. So it has nothing to do with crisis management by AGEIA. So can we please stop it with the stupid comments? If you don’t agree with me that’s fine but don’t accurse me of working for AGEIA just so you can ignore my facts.
It appears some of you think AGEIA implanted me in these forums in 2002 ready to spring out today for their card today, which is a silly thought. How can I prove I don’t work for AGEIA?
Associate
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Completley agree with u KDD, just upgraded my machine as in sig. Did think of crossfire but thought nah, too much money, then hear bout the prices for physix card. Thought bugger that.
Soldato
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Pottsey said:
Agreed - lets keep this on a slightly higher than kindergarten level
Seriously tho, however much we might disagree with someone’s observations, the thread shouldn't be reduced to groundless accusations.Personally I don't see the point of arguing the squat over who is to 'blame' for the poor turnout of the PhysX implementation - the fact is that there is nothing out there that warrants spending £200 on purchasing the card and there is nothing to prove the the current iteration of the hardware has ANY place in the market. It may very well do at a later stage but right now, all it is doing is increasing your power bill and decreasing the size of your wallet.
I have noticed that you started the same threads in the Futuremark and Beyond3D forums Pottsey. We are forming our opinions based on what we see and experience. You say that you are a special needs teacher, and yet you profess to know a great deal about the development of computer software. Conversely, ihatelag, what grounds do you have to make technical judgements and to naysay Pottseys comments? IMO we should stick to what we can base on fact and leave the speculation and fairy tales to Ageia
“I have noticed that you started the same threads in the Futuremark and Beyond3D forums Pottsey.”
That was me posting at Futuremark & at Beyond3D but I did not start any threads about AGEIA at Beyond3D. I just asked a few questions to try and learn more.
“You say that you are a special needs teacher, and yet you profess to know a great deal about the development of computer software.”
Sorry I wasn’t clear. I am not a teacher way to much paper work for me to ever do that and my writing and spelling skills are not good enough. My job is an IT Technician and I have a diploma in computer studies which includes software development which is why I say I have a understanding of the development of software.
Though it’s not a normal IT Technician job due to it being in a special needs school but I will not bore you with details unless you really want to know.
EDIT: I am not saying I have a great deal of knowledge about the development of computer software. That’s a bit of a strong word as I dont know that much, more a ok to good amount of knowledge.
That was me posting at Futuremark & at Beyond3D but I did not start any threads about AGEIA at Beyond3D. I just asked a few questions to try and learn more.
“You say that you are a special needs teacher, and yet you profess to know a great deal about the development of computer software.”
Sorry I wasn’t clear. I am not a teacher way to much paper work for me to ever do that and my writing and spelling skills are not good enough. My job is an IT Technician and I have a diploma in computer studies which includes software development which is why I say I have a understanding of the development of software.
Though it’s not a normal IT Technician job due to it being in a special needs school but I will not bore you with details unless you really want to know.
EDIT: I am not saying I have a great deal of knowledge about the development of computer software. That’s a bit of a strong word as I dont know that much, more a ok to good amount of knowledge.
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Soldato
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Pottsey said:
Would it be safe to say that you have not been involved in the production of a large scale/budget game and/or the addition of high end graphics and physics engines?
I too am an IT technition and have studied in electrical engineering part of which was programming and getting software to talk to hardware. However I would never profess to be knowledgeable in the development of computer games or the development of high end physics hardware.
Caporegime
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Ok mate fair play to you, its one of your interests so why would'nt you want to talk about it. 
Come on everyone just lay off the guy, he's not a fanboy he's just discussing a subject that interests him, theres no harm in that, gota give him credit for the way he's handling all the pathetic comments at him, ive made a couple and so ill apologise.
Come on everyone just lay off the guy, he's not a fanboy he's just discussing a subject that interests him, theres no harm in that, gota give him credit for the way he's handling all the pathetic comments at him, ive made a couple and so ill apologise.
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LoadsaMoney said:Ok mate fair play to you, its one of your interests so why would'nt you want to talk about it.
Come on everyone just lay off the guy, he's not a fanboy he's just discussing a subject that interests him, theres no harm in that, gota give him credit for the way he's handling all the pathetic comments at him, ive made a couple and so ill apologise.
Indeed, I am sorry too...but none of his comments holds any merit against evidence that is shown.
I think my points in my previous posts are clear, all the replys he gave can be added to AGEIA's portfolio of excuses! They need every one they can get if they want to survive for a long period of time.
Here is the list of excuses so far to add to AGEIA's website (found in the OcUK forum):
- poor game development
- poor use of novadex
- poor use of graphics
- no time to implement technology
- flag ripping at 1fps - sigh (Because ripping cloth is what physics is all about)
- time taken to make the game (it was rushed)
- referencing against nvidia's and ati's solution because ageia physx solution can do it better
- lack of benchmarks from ATI (Even though AGEIA has not got any to show likewise)
- running physx on a poor system to utilise ppu technology
- PCI slot with a ppu will out perform a graphics card on a PCI-E slot
I would be here forever listing the excuses for AGEIA so somebody prove my list wrong.
SteveOBhave said:
Technical judgements- I will ask my current company if I can reveal what I do. (sorry if my posts sound technical, I have to practice not doing that
the boss is always saying im emailing him too much technical info - great place to practice over here) Other than that, I am a Dr in Comp.Sci focus on parallel computation and my thesis was on 3D rendering in parallel (on a cluster of computers) using ray light tracing.
If that's not good enough for any one, then screw it, just wait for the release of ATI and NVIDIA's solution and then see what is better!
IMO we should stick to what we can base on fact and leave the speculation and fairy tales to Ageia
Quoted for the truth!!!
LoadsaMoney said:
with all this AGEIA flag waving and starting a thread called "The Ageia PhysX gives you extra effects and more FPS. I recommend to buy it" ... http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17582037
it's hard to believe that he's just a tech guy, who works in a school.
bet you're a riot down the pub... (joke, sorry, couldn't resist)
Soldato
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ihatelag said:Technical judgements- I will ask my current company if I can reveal what I do. (sorry if my posts sound technical, I have to practice not doing that
Other than that, I am a Dr in Comp.Sci focus on parallel computation and my thesis was on 3D rendering in parallel (on a cluster of computers) using ray light tracing.
If that's not good enough for any one, then screw it, just wait for the release of ATI and NVIDIA's solution and then see what is better!
Quoted for the truth!!!
LOL wicked
but still not a games developer - but I will accept that you're a very smart cookie I guess another reason for keeping the observations to something we all know is that as the end user we want to know about what is directly relevant to us.
Soldato
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I don't think there's any point in going round in endless circles about this.
People seem to have their own view on just what physics acceleration should be doing for us as the end user. Some say it should make games faster, some believe it should allow for a far greater amount of physics that are far more complex than what we have today with little to no performance hit.
What you think it should be doing is a matter of opinion, but let me make something perfectly clear; there is not a single demo or game out there that shows of what ageia are trying to do with their implimentation of physics aceleration. graw for instance - it neither runs acceptably on top flight hardware nor is there any kind of details physics on display that make you go "yeah, this £200 card was worth it". graw without a PPU runs slow, graw with a ppu runs slow with some fancy cloth and extra (somewhat random) boxes appearing when you blow something up. It is not a good demo in any means of the word.
Yes, people are devided on what physics are all about, which is strange because generally when an acceleration card is brought to the market normally everybody knows what it does - makes something faster. Demo'ing a slow game that still runs slow with an expensive ppu is not the way to market your product IMO, it certainly isnt doing them any favours and if they know they are capable of so much more, why arent they doing something about it?
In a perfect world, a PPU would be flexible enough to accerate framerates, or allow much greater detail whilst still plying at acceptable frame-rates....OR both. not the current shambles we have from AGEIA. ATi may well change this.
Something to think about.
People seem to have their own view on just what physics acceleration should be doing for us as the end user. Some say it should make games faster, some believe it should allow for a far greater amount of physics that are far more complex than what we have today with little to no performance hit.
What you think it should be doing is a matter of opinion, but let me make something perfectly clear; there is not a single demo or game out there that shows of what ageia are trying to do with their implimentation of physics aceleration. graw for instance - it neither runs acceptably on top flight hardware nor is there any kind of details physics on display that make you go "yeah, this £200 card was worth it". graw without a PPU runs slow, graw with a ppu runs slow with some fancy cloth and extra (somewhat random) boxes appearing when you blow something up. It is not a good demo in any means of the word.
Yes, people are devided on what physics are all about, which is strange because generally when an acceleration card is brought to the market normally everybody knows what it does - makes something faster. Demo'ing a slow game that still runs slow with an expensive ppu is not the way to market your product IMO, it certainly isnt doing them any favours and if they know they are capable of so much more, why arent they doing something about it?
In a perfect world, a PPU would be flexible enough to accerate framerates, or allow much greater detail whilst still plying at acceptable frame-rates....OR both. not the current shambles we have from AGEIA. ATi may well change this.
Something to think about.
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“"The Ageia PhysX gives you extra effects and more FPS.”
That was in response to the new patch which fixed the problems. Some of you where going around saying the CPU renders the same effects as the PhysX PPU in cellfactor which wasn’t true at the time of posting. Some of you also said the PhysX PPU caused massive slow down in FPS which was no longer true. I was only trying to post the truth which was the CPU did not render everything the PPU did in Cellfactor and in Ghost Recon you now get a FPS boost and more effects over using only the CPU which is also true. As the PPU gave extra effects and a small FPS boost I recommended to buy it as I didnt think the PPU was as bad as people said as most of the thing being said where not true.
It turns out that the PPU does give extra effects and more FPS in ghost Recon while some of you where saying the PPU gave a massive FPS drop. I didn’t even do the benchmarks it was other PPU owners on this forum that did the benchmarks. Yet you’re still having a go at me saying I am wrong. Yet I was right and the benchmarks ran by other forum member’s show I was right.
“Would it be safe to say that you have not been involved in the production of a large scale/budget game and/or the addition of high end graphics and physics engines?”
Nope that’s wouldn’t be a safe bet. I have never done the above as a full time or even as a part time job but I have done it in my free time.
For high end graphics I have worked with Imagination Technologies in the past. I worked with there engineers checking facts while writing the BIOS guides and other guides on my website for there 3Dcards. I even get sent samples of there cards before they are up for sale. I still have my Kyro II SE which never made it to shops. Also I got tours around there HQ and seen what they are working on along with being able to interview staff.
I have interview game developers personally and right now I have volunteered my free time and signed an NDA to work on a game. I dont mean beta test with 100 or 1000’s of other people either. Just me and a small group of other volunteers and the developers. In fact I am in a chat with the developers most nights. But I cannot post details without breaking the NDA.
Just to be clear I have not and never worked on a large scale/budget game for money or as a full time job. I never said I have a great understanding of software development only that I understood it. I do not sit in a room with developers every day working on a game and I am not an expert by a long shot but I do understand it.
Here is the list of excuses so far to add to AGEIA's website (found in the OcUK forum):”
As I pointed out before half of those are not AGEIA’s excuses they are stuff you are making up or have nothing to do with AGEIA take
“poor use of graphics”
This has nothing to do with AGEIA they do not deal with graphics. That’s the developers and graphics card job.
” - time taken to make the game (it was rushed)”
The developers fault. If the developers are not ready they should take more time to work on it or bring out a patch. Why is it AGEIA’s fault if a developers rush’s the making of a game or part of the game? It's AGEIA fault for bringing the card out before enough games are ready but its not AGEIA fault when the game is rushed.
“- PCI slot with a ppu will out perform a graphics card on a PCI-E slot”
Slot type does not directly mean faster. There are plenty of case’ where PCI cards out perform AGP cards. The slot type mainly refers to how much bandwidth is available to the card that’s plugged in. If you have enough bandwidth then it doesn’t matter if you use PCI or PCI-E.
You keep saying the PCI-E GPU will be faster but you never post benchmarks. Until we prove that the PCI-GPU is faster its not fair to say AGEIA are wrong. You’re just assuming. Assumptions do not mean your right and AGEIA are making excuses up.
Anyway with Nvidia them self’s saying they have basic physics it doesn’t matter how fast they are.
That was in response to the new patch which fixed the problems. Some of you where going around saying the CPU renders the same effects as the PhysX PPU in cellfactor which wasn’t true at the time of posting. Some of you also said the PhysX PPU caused massive slow down in FPS which was no longer true. I was only trying to post the truth which was the CPU did not render everything the PPU did in Cellfactor and in Ghost Recon you now get a FPS boost and more effects over using only the CPU which is also true. As the PPU gave extra effects and a small FPS boost I recommended to buy it as I didnt think the PPU was as bad as people said as most of the thing being said where not true.
It turns out that the PPU does give extra effects and more FPS in ghost Recon while some of you where saying the PPU gave a massive FPS drop. I didn’t even do the benchmarks it was other PPU owners on this forum that did the benchmarks. Yet you’re still having a go at me saying I am wrong. Yet I was right and the benchmarks ran by other forum member’s show I was right.
“Would it be safe to say that you have not been involved in the production of a large scale/budget game and/or the addition of high end graphics and physics engines?”
Nope that’s wouldn’t be a safe bet. I have never done the above as a full time or even as a part time job but I have done it in my free time.
For high end graphics I have worked with Imagination Technologies in the past. I worked with there engineers checking facts while writing the BIOS guides and other guides on my website for there 3Dcards. I even get sent samples of there cards before they are up for sale. I still have my Kyro II SE which never made it to shops. Also I got tours around there HQ and seen what they are working on along with being able to interview staff.
I have interview game developers personally and right now I have volunteered my free time and signed an NDA to work on a game. I dont mean beta test with 100 or 1000’s of other people either. Just me and a small group of other volunteers and the developers. In fact I am in a chat with the developers most nights. But I cannot post details without breaking the NDA.
Just to be clear I have not and never worked on a large scale/budget game for money or as a full time job. I never said I have a great understanding of software development only that I understood it. I do not sit in a room with developers every day working on a game and I am not an expert by a long shot but I do understand it.
Here is the list of excuses so far to add to AGEIA's website (found in the OcUK forum):”
As I pointed out before half of those are not AGEIA’s excuses they are stuff you are making up or have nothing to do with AGEIA take
“poor use of graphics”
This has nothing to do with AGEIA they do not deal with graphics. That’s the developers and graphics card job.
” - time taken to make the game (it was rushed)”
The developers fault. If the developers are not ready they should take more time to work on it or bring out a patch. Why is it AGEIA’s fault if a developers rush’s the making of a game or part of the game? It's AGEIA fault for bringing the card out before enough games are ready but its not AGEIA fault when the game is rushed.
“- PCI slot with a ppu will out perform a graphics card on a PCI-E slot”
Slot type does not directly mean faster. There are plenty of case’ where PCI cards out perform AGP cards. The slot type mainly refers to how much bandwidth is available to the card that’s plugged in. If you have enough bandwidth then it doesn’t matter if you use PCI or PCI-E.
You keep saying the PCI-E GPU will be faster but you never post benchmarks. Until we prove that the PCI-GPU is faster its not fair to say AGEIA are wrong. You’re just assuming. Assumptions do not mean your right and AGEIA are making excuses up.
Anyway with Nvidia them self’s saying they have basic physics it doesn’t matter how fast they are.
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Soldato
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Pottsey said:
what cases would they be then? what cards out there can you directly compare pci and agp performance with?
Caporegime
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kdd said:
Do you own an Ageia card too? Just out of interest
Soldato
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kdd said:
I'm taking a little stab in the dark here (well, semi educated) but Pottsey appears to be something of a 3D graphics hardware enthusiast. One thing that we can't deny is that the PhysX card is an extremely clever idea (ignoring the implementation for a moment) and that seems to be something that gets Pottseys 'juices flowing'.
Am I close Pottsey? - I checked out the links in your sig...
“I'm taking a little stab in the dark here (well, semi educated) but Pottsey appears to be something of a 3D graphics hardware enthusiast. One thing that we can't deny is that the PhysX card is an extremely clever idea (ignoring the implementation for a moment) and that seems to be something that gets Pottseys 'juices flowing'.
Am I close Pottsey? - I checked out the links in your sig...”
That’s pretty much 100% right, I cannot deny being a 3D graphics hardware enthusiast. I found the past two generations of PC 3dCards to be relative boring just more of the same. So hardware physic both on the ATI GPU and by AGEIA are festinating to me as its something new and fresh with lots of potential. Same for the recent mobile phone and PDA 3Dchips those are festinating. I hope the DX10 3dcards go back to be interesting like the older generations. We need something more then just a new generation with xx speed improvements.
“Do you own an Ageia card too? Just out of interest ”
Not to sure if that was aimed at me or kdd. I own the 256meg Asus PPU. My current games are Ghost Recon, Switchball and Cellfactor. I look forward to UT2007, Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends & the real big game for me is Sacred II.
”Pottsey just out of curiosity if you aren't an ageia employee why are you such a staunch supporter of physx cards? I can't see anything to be excited about tbh, everyhting displayed so far has been overwhelmingly crap tbh.”
I truly believe Ghost Recon is only the start and the rest of the games will make much better use of the PPU. The PPU has lots of potential and I personally believe Ghost Recon is barely stressing or using much of the PPU’s power. I also don’t think Ghost Recon is as bad as people say as the physics effects in motion are good but there is room for improvement. Too many people got stuck on first impressions and didn’t notice or don’t believe the problems have been fixed. Now that is partly AGEIA’s fault but I don’t think it’s fair.
“what cases would they be then? what cards out there can you directly compare pci and agp performance with?“
A PCI kyro is the same performance as an AGP Kyro as the card doesn’t need the extra bandwidth from the AGP slot. I believe it’s the same for Voodoo 5’s the PCI cards are no slower then the AGP cards.
The reason I don’t believe in using a cards raw speed as a measurement. Is because its often miss leading. Take a Kyro 1. Its core speed at 115Mhz with two pixel pipes and one TMU per pipe gives a pixel/texel rate of 230Mpps/230Mtps. For comparison that’s less raw power then a TNT 2. For those that don’t remember TNT2 are per Geforce 1 cards. Yet in benchmarks and games the Kyro is around the same speed sometimes faster then a Geforce 2 MX.
If you go by the raw specs you would think the kyro was useless running at TNT2 speeds but it doesn’t in games. What if the PPU is like a Kyro and the ATI card is like the Geforce. ATI might have more raw speed but it doesn’t mean they are faster they could both be the same speed. It’s to early to tell either way. ATI could be x5 faster or x5 slower.
Am I close Pottsey? - I checked out the links in your sig...”
That’s pretty much 100% right, I cannot deny being a 3D graphics hardware enthusiast. I found the past two generations of PC 3dCards to be relative boring just more of the same. So hardware physic both on the ATI GPU and by AGEIA are festinating to me as its something new and fresh with lots of potential. Same for the recent mobile phone and PDA 3Dchips those are festinating. I hope the DX10 3dcards go back to be interesting like the older generations. We need something more then just a new generation with xx speed improvements.
“Do you own an Ageia card too? Just out of interest ”
Not to sure if that was aimed at me or kdd. I own the 256meg Asus PPU. My current games are Ghost Recon, Switchball and Cellfactor. I look forward to UT2007, Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends & the real big game for me is Sacred II.
”Pottsey just out of curiosity if you aren't an ageia employee why are you such a staunch supporter of physx cards? I can't see anything to be excited about tbh, everyhting displayed so far has been overwhelmingly crap tbh.”
I truly believe Ghost Recon is only the start and the rest of the games will make much better use of the PPU. The PPU has lots of potential and I personally believe Ghost Recon is barely stressing or using much of the PPU’s power. I also don’t think Ghost Recon is as bad as people say as the physics effects in motion are good but there is room for improvement. Too many people got stuck on first impressions and didn’t notice or don’t believe the problems have been fixed. Now that is partly AGEIA’s fault but I don’t think it’s fair.
“what cases would they be then? what cards out there can you directly compare pci and agp performance with?“
A PCI kyro is the same performance as an AGP Kyro as the card doesn’t need the extra bandwidth from the AGP slot. I believe it’s the same for Voodoo 5’s the PCI cards are no slower then the AGP cards.
The reason I don’t believe in using a cards raw speed as a measurement. Is because its often miss leading. Take a Kyro 1. Its core speed at 115Mhz with two pixel pipes and one TMU per pipe gives a pixel/texel rate of 230Mpps/230Mtps. For comparison that’s less raw power then a TNT 2. For those that don’t remember TNT2 are per Geforce 1 cards. Yet in benchmarks and games the Kyro is around the same speed sometimes faster then a Geforce 2 MX.
If you go by the raw specs you would think the kyro was useless running at TNT2 speeds but it doesn’t in games. What if the PPU is like a Kyro and the ATI card is like the Geforce. ATI might have more raw speed but it doesn’t mean they are faster they could both be the same speed. It’s to early to tell either way. ATI could be x5 faster or x5 slower.