AirCon Regas

[mattyy]

Another massive difference which is far more important to consider than seals, is that your fridge does not move around over potholes and kerbs and, and get shaken around violently (in comparison) almost every time it is used.

It is the vibration on pipes joints etc that causes minuscule leaks almost constantly on mobile air conditioning systems.

Any kind of fixed installment of air conditioning or refrigeration systems, such as fridges, freezers, office A/C, shop chiller units etc are not allowed to loose any refrigerant gas at all over time, I have seen systems in place for 20+ years and they still have exactly the same amount of gas, to the gram, as when first installed.

However (and I cannot of the top of my head remember the exact figures but I think it's in the region of 10 to 15%) mobile A/C systems such as on vehicles are allowed, by regulations, to loose x percent of their gas each year without it being a concern, because the powers that be, know such mobile systems are subject to huge amounts of vibration fixed systems are not exposed to.

So yes you might be lucky and have a car that looses nothing over a few years, or you may have one that needs topping up every couple of years or so, but unless a major leak is found that looses it all in a matter of weeks, having your system topped up every couple of years or so is normal and not a need for concern.

Don't be silly, I would think the entire refrigerated transport industry would be breaking all the FGAS regulations if this was the case. Most of the smaller systems fitted to vans are similarly connected to car a/c systems but fall under the strict FGAS regs and run on various refrigerants other than R134a.
Sure, a car a/c system is more susceptible to damage because of the reasons you've stated but it isn't the reason to as why it happens. The reason it happens is definitely down to the compressor seals and lack of use to the point they dry up and perish. People don't use their air con in winter, believing that it only serves the purpose of cooling the air in the summer. The lack of use during winter and cold temperature causes liquid migration back to the compressor, this can cause refrigerant absorption into the compressor’s oil and or oil dilution, top this off with the fact that oil will also be stuck in the evaporator with no natural return due to its last use being at a warmer ambient. Ultimately it all leads to less oil on that seal and once a seal has dried out... Refrigerant will slowly seep through the worn seal, its difficult to diagnose as it may only happen when the compressor has generated heat from running. Furthermore, every a/c regas 'rig' isn't accurate enough or given enough time to identify such small leaks.

 

[Entai]

Don't be silly, I would think the entire refrigerated transport industry would be breaking all the FGAS regulations if this was the case. Most of the smaller systems fitted to vans are similarly connected to car a/c systems but fall under the strict FGAS regs and run on various refrigerants other than R134a.
Sure, a car a/c system is more susceptible to damage because of the reasons you've stated but it isn't the reason to as why it happens. The reason it happens is definitely down to the compressor seals and lack of use to the point they dry up and perish. People don't use their air con in winter, believing that it only serves the purpose of cooling the air in the summer. The lack of use during winter and cold temperature causes liquid migration back to the compressor, this can cause refrigerant absorption into the compressor’s oil and or oil dilution, top this off with the fact that oil will also be stuck in the evaporator with no natural return due to its last use being at a warmer ambient. Ultimately it all leads to less oil on that seal and once a seal has dried out... Refrigerant will slowly seep through the worn seal, its difficult to diagnose as it may only happen when the compressor has generated heat from running. Furthermore, every a/c regas 'rig' isn't accurate enough or given enough time to identify such small leaks.

If you read the study here you will see what I mean ALL mobile air conditioning systems loose gas, it is fact.

https://ec.europa.eu/clima/sites/clima/files/eccp/docs/leakage_rates_final_report_en.pdf

In case its too long here is the conclusion.

In this study it has been established that the annual average leakage rate of regular emissions from “second generation” Mobile Air Conditioner's in EU 15 ranges between 52.4 grams and 53.9 grams of HFC-134a per annum. The leakage rate does not seem to depend much on the climatic conditions, the type of fuel used or the type of engine. A surprising result was that the youngest MACs had the highest leakage rates (80.3 grams of HFC-134a per annum).

This study was carried out 4 years before the F Gas Regs came into force, and the consequent regulations did limit the amount of allowable loss to, as I said around 10 to 15% per year.

Yes manufacturing tolerances and higher quality parts have made a difference to the amount of annual leakage, but it has not and cannot eliminate it completely, because of the factors I stated, therefore the regulations have not and do not ban all losses or make any amount of loss illegal.

Only deliberate venting to atmosphere is illegal, and also the refilling of a system known to have any kind of leak is illegal without first fully leak checking.



As for the factors you quoted, they are in fact opposite to what you supposed.

(The study also found, that), it seemed that the more the air conditioner is operated the higher the leakage rate, as the leakage rate of air conditioners measured in Portugal (54.0 grams or 7.5% per year) were higher than in Germany (48.7 grams or 6.2% per annum).

Granted a relatively small difference, but certainly a difference, pointing to the more you use the system the more chance of a leak.

 

[mattyy]

Snip..

Here we go again with you quoting out dated non-sense to back up any lack of understanding you have.

I'm referring to the the part where you stated that the reason systems loose gas on vehicles is because they go 'over potholes and kerbs and, and get shaken around violently' being more of a reason than the compressor seals. I am not saying that they do not loose refrigerant at all.
I'm arguing that fact that refrigerated systems containing different gasses (R404A and R407C) which have stricter leakage rules and often fall under the FGAS regulations because of their gas amounts (NOTE: Nearly all car air conditioning systems DO NOT contain enough refrigerant to fall under these regulations you spout on about) ARE also fitted to vehicles which also go 'over potholes and kerbs and, and get shaken around violently' so that if these systems are KNOWN to leak from badly designed fitting connections and as such are not fit for use on a road vehicle rather than an uncontrollable mechanical failure of a compressor seal - surely the former is breaking the F Gas regulations? The point you're missing is that the small systems fitted to cars are not under F Gas, and this is why so many systems leak and will obscure your 'studies'. Mechanics take a short course of how to operate a near fully automated rig which will not automatically identify a leak, it gets charged and leaks out again over the course of a year - is the mechanic illegally venting the refrigerant? If the system was under F Gas regulations a full pressure test and dehydration procedure would highlight that leak...

Anyway, your study also contradicts itself in the very statement you posted.;

There was some evidence supporting the hypothesis that the more the air conditioner prone to corrosion due to winter conditions the higher the leakage rate, as the leakage rate found in Sweden (54.3 grams or 7.0% per year) was higher than in Germany (48.7 grams or 6.2% per annum). as the leakage rate found in Sweden (54.3 grams or 7.0% per year) was higher than in Germany (48.7 grams or 6.2% per annum). However, it also seemed that the more the air conditioner is operated the higher the leakage rate, as the leakage rate of air conditioners measured in Portugal (54.0 grams or 7.5% per year) were higher than in Germany (48.7 grams or 6.2% per annum).

It also seems that the same study also tells you that the compressor seals are in fact the biggest cause of leaks...

I'm starting to think you just look for any information that will give you something different to argue.